Undergunned with 9mm?

[WonderNine]

You didn't start any war, just the typical 9mm vs. .45 debate that's all.

.357Sig-.40S&W for your wife? And she's a non-shooter? I would say no. 9mm or .38 special.

If she's a non-shooter, I'd really be looking at revolvers, not autos. That's for sure.

 

[firestar]

For some reason the 9mm gets treated like the red headed stepchild of the gun world. I once had a guy tell me that my 9mm was puny and weak and wouldn't get the job done (not in those exact words) while he was carrying a .357 loaded with .38s! My 16 shot 9mm Beretta loaded with +P JHps must be at least as good as a 6 shot .38spl!

9mm is more powerful than the .38spl but facts and reality have no place in some people's minds. I guess the fact that his gun was a .357 somehow imparted more power to his .38spl loads.

 

[WonderNine]

Hmm, 9mm Ranger +P+ SXT's @ 460ft/lbs vs. .38 spec +P's out of a snub.....

The normal .357 out of a 4 inch tube is gonna have more power than a +P+ 9mm, but when you compare it to the difference of power in say rifles...is it really worth it for all that extra noise and recoil? Not to mention slower reload and less shots to start with?

No.

What does the .38/.357 have going for it? Not much. .355 diameter 9mm vs. .357 diameter .357/.38.

And a true defensive load like the .357 Golden Saber @ 400ft/lbs doesn't compare either, even out of a 4 inch barrel.

 

[Kenneth Lew]

I wouldn't like to be shot by any of them.

 

[Parker Dean]

Originally posted by Alan Fud
Parker, not to go off-topic here, but does anyone still make the full-power 200grn 10mm round?

The Norma 10mm was 200gr@1200fps. Texas Ammunition Company www.texas-ammo.com offers a 200gr FMJ-FP@1250fps for 694ft-lbs ME

From their website:

10 MM (Express). One of our most popular loads are our 10mm (Express). Our goal was to provide a full line of 10mm loads with the power the 10mm was designed for. We have chose the Nosler 135 Grain JHP loaded to 1450 fps for 630 ft. lbs of energy at the muzzle; a 165 Grain JHP loaded to 1350 fps for 668 ft. lbs of energy at the muzzle; and the Hornady 200 Grain FMJ-FP loaded to 1250 fps for 694 ft. lbs of energy at the muzzle.

As a Note, it seems there may have been some confusion over our introduction of these loads last year. These are 10mm loads loaded to what we describe as our "Express" velocities -- It is NOT a new cartridge. This ammunition can be fired in any modern 10mm handgun, in good condition, and manufactured to handle the maximum levels that the 10mm was originally designed for.


These are probably a bit too hot for good SD use except for those VERY experienced, but make for some fun shooting.

 

[Lancel]

9mm is fine. 10mm is better.

The other calibers you listed just fall in between somewhere.

My thoughts on caliber as regards the all important Bullet Placement is that the ammo should provide:

Reliable functioning so the bullet gets to an effective place.
Penetration so the bullet gets to an effective place.
Sharp edged bullet (eg. expanded hollow point) so it's more effective at that place.

So with proven ammo in a proven handgun - nine is fine.

Of course only your wife can tell you what she likes best. But I've found that most neophytes prefer shooting 9mm over larger calibers in small autos.

Larry

 

[chaim]

No big surprise that this turned into your typical caliber war. However, for my take on your question only, here it goes:

Undergunned with 9mm?

No. I think Alan Fud put it best in his first post here. In quality loadings the 9mm is quite good. Ammo selection is very important w/ 9mm, more so than with .40 or .45, since there are some bad choices in 9mm ammo. However, today there are enough good 9mm choices that I am very confident using a 9mm, .40 or .45 for my defensive needs.

However, (and I am a 9mm guy), if I was you I would buy the .40s&w versions of the guns you are looking at. Why? Because you don't sound completely confident in the 9mm. If you need to be talked into it you aren't comfortable with it. If you aren't comfortable with it there is that chance that you just might hesitate a fraction of a second when you need to act most. If you are uncomfortable with a 9mm, for whatever reason, you should relagate your 9mms for range/fun use only.

As for recoil, yes the .40 is noticably stronger in felt recoil. The 9mm is a light but very fast round that gives a short, sharp recoil into your hand. The .45acp is a slow heavy round that gives a slow but strong push into your hand. The .40S&W is both (relatively) heavy and fast so you have a heavy recoil in a sharp, short shock. To me the .40 is a far less comfortable type of recoil than 9mm or .45acp. However, in guns heavy enough to handle it you will be ok. I don't know about the Kahr in .40 v. in 9mm. A buddy has the MK9 in (obviously) 9mm, a range had one to rent. It isn't bad at all. However, I have not fired a MK40 or K40. If I was to venture a guess though, I doubt that it would be tougher than a J-frame shooting +Ps.

 

[VG]

Would I be undergunned with a 9mm? Or should I get these compact pistols in the supposedly more effective .40S&W or .357Sig and learn to like the recoil and flamethrowing?

See if you can get a copy of the Army Medical Corps "Wound Book." You'll need a very strong stomach, but once you see what has happened to many soldiers shot with FMJ 9mm, you won't have any concerns about the ability of that round to blow humans apart.

 

[Son of John]

Yeah undergunned

Anybody with any handgun is undergunned if they run up against someone with any rifle or shotgun. If some of us feel superior with a bigger handgun load, get a reality check against real firepower.

Crappy calibers don't survive in the market place. 9 mil has been around a long time and is chambered in a lot of guns. Same for .45. For handguns, all of the modern loads of major calibers do a good job be it .357, 9, .40, 10, .45, .44 mag, etc. Cops and FBI who live and die with their guns like .40 for a good reason, fast and heavy bullet means good penetration and good knockdown at the same time.

These handgun caliber wars are never settled and the same old arguments come up every time. It all boils down to bragging about what you got and putting down somebody else to feel like king of the hill.

 

[New_comer]

Would I be undergunned with a 9mm?

Definitely not!

 

[Dobe]

How could you possibly feel undergunned when you're carrying twice as much or more ammo as the .45 shooters?

I beleive that is called the "spray and pray" technique.
What was it that Bill Jordan said? Paraphrased: if you can't solve your problems with six, you won't solve it with......

I do have and have had 9's before. I would not feel unarmed with one. But the added insurance of the larger caliber is the reason I carry the .45.
I do agree that with the "right" bullet selection, the 9mm can be an adequet manstopper. The problem is that even the best design fails. The best bullets do not always perform as planned. A big bullet is always big, even if the hollow point fails to open.

 

[Dobe]

Crappy calibers don't survive in the market place. 9 mil has been around a long time and is chambered in a lot of guns.

.
Wasn't the .32 ACP used for years by some European police? That doesn't make the .32 ACP a great defensive round.

 

[goon]

There is nothing wrong with the 9mm.
It will kill just as dead as any other caliber.
The whole debate is rediculous.
Holes in your chest are bad.
One may not be enough no matter what the caliber so you are best to just put two or three there in the first place.

 

[Sean Smith]

Parker, not to go off-topic here, but does anyone still make the full-power 200grn 10mm round?

Cor-Bon also has a full power 200gr 10mm hunting load. Same as the Norma spec (200gr @ 1,200 ft/sec from a 4.6" barrel).

Yes, you are undergunned with 9mm. But you are undergunned with ANY handgun caliber. What lots of people don't grasp is that with most handgun calibers, you are arguing over degree of suckitude. Handguns are compromise weapons by design, pick a compromise you can live with.

 

[antediluvianist]

no grounds for arguement

Just get a hi-cap .45. That equalizes the capacity advantage of a 9mm over the standard single-stack .45, and retains the momentum advantage of the .45 round.

You cannot possibly feel undergunned with a hi-cap .45.

Hands too small for a hi-cap .45? I've seen women 5 feet tall with small bones handle hi-cap .45s perfectly easily. I suspect it's not really a problem for most, almost all, people .

Hey, everybody, get a hi-cap .45. It's the best of both worlds.

 

[Sean Smith]

You cannot possibly feel undergunned with a hi-cap .45.

You should.

 

[George Hill]

No kidding. Your always undergunned with a handgun. For serious work, you need a rifle.

 

[antediluvianist]

house defense

I'm talking about house defense. Short-range defense, not offense.

Of course rifles beat handguns. For that matter, artillery beats rifles. Go all the way and use a thermonuclear bomb.

 

[Island Beretta]

As Boats said these questions tend to be IQ droppers but I know that sometime there is a genuine issue with the poster.

Note the following and form your own conclusions:

1. The 9mm is used by most of the world's military and police forces.

2. 9mm can be safely loaded to approach the performance of the .45 and .40.

3. You would not stand in front of a gun firing one (I suppose you wouldn't either for a .22 caliber round).

4. Momentum = mass x velocity. Do the math..9mm or .45 has the greater momentum?? You are not so concerned with momentum as you are with the ability of the round to impart that energy to you-hence the concept of the hollowpoint.

5. Medical records show great devastation and mortality infliction by handgun rounds even .22; key factors contributing to this included shot placement, penetration, psychological reaction to the wound and wound entry angle. Guess what bullet diameter (.355 for 9mm and .45 for .45) was not a big issue.

If you can get a .45 going 1700 ft/s in a handgun like a .50 shotgun slug then you have a winner though you may be devastated/wounded by the recoil.

6. As a close combat weapon a knife is more lethal than any handgun round-larger wound capacity, greater shock effect and quicker loss of blood- but again it depends on cut/stab placement.

 

[BerettaNut92]

What 10-ring, Marko and George Hill said....

I'm only undergunned with my 9mm because my .308 is too loud to shoot indoors

 

[antediluvianist]

momentum

Exactly as you said : momentum is mass x velocity.

A standard 230 grain .45 bullet has TWICE the mass of a standard 115 grain 9mm bullet.

The 9mm's velocity of roughly 1200 ft./sec. is certainly NOT twice the velocity of the .45's roughly 850 ft./sec. Ergo using the mass X velocity equation, the .45 bullet clearly has more momentum. The math is clear.

Of course a heavier 9mm bullet can be used, but even a heavy 145 grain 9mm bullet only has 63% of the mass of a 230 grain .45 bullet. The equation mass X velocity clearly still gives the advantage to the .45 bullet for momentum.

It is NOT necessary for the .45 bullet to go faster than its usual approx. 850 ft. per sec. for this momentum advantage to be retained. The math clearly proves that.

But of course it is true that if the .45 bullet is FMJ and goes right through the target-person, and if the comparison is with a 9mm HP bullet which delivers all its energy inside the target-person's body, then 9mm might be better given those particular assumptions.

A bullet-strike of even a .22 into the brain may be instantly fatal: we all know "bullet-placement" is the most important factor. However, perfect shot placement is not to be counted on, especially in a stressful/dark situation. The .45 slug's superior momentum relative to the 9mm slug is not to be sneezed at.

 

[hd1.]

All wives are not created equal, so I'm not making any generalizations about women's ability to handle firearms. I can only relate how being married to this particular one effected my choice in selecting a carry caliber. My wife has a Ruger SP101 in .357, but only shoots .38s . When I was deciding which Kahr MK to buy, (the 9mm or the .40) I was able to rent both of them to try. I wanted to get a carry piece that my wife would shoot if the need ever arose. I ended up with the 9mm. The .40 had some muzzle flip, while the 9mm tended to stay more on target. My wife is comfortable picking up and firing the MK9. To me, this is an important consideration in my selection of a carry piece; I'm lisenced, and she's not. The extra round along with the cost of ammo are bonus points. If I'm downed, I want a gun that she will not hesitate to pick up.

(I should also mention that she is more comfortable with my full-sized .45ACP than she is with .357 from the snubby.)

 

[Mike Irwin]

Momentum is great if you're shooting bowling pins.


It's pretty much worthless as a parameter for judging bullet performance if you want a round that's going to expand, penetrate, and open up critical wounds.


The ability to creat a permanent wound cavity -- disrupting muscles, nerves, blood vessels, and organs -- and the effects from that wound cavity are what causes a hostile individual to cease hostile activities.

The chart posted earlier is a pretty clear indication that Federal Hydrashoks have this ability.

It's funny how the expansion of all 4 bullets is virtually identical, and the 9mms cut permanent wound cavities of much greater volumn, and yet somehow the 9mm is inferior because the bullet isn't as big?

 

[45auto]

I haven't shot all those combinations you mentioned, but I would go with the 9mm and just be concerned that your wife can hit anything with it and that the gun functions for her...everytime.

Although the chances are probably slim to none that she would ever have to fire it, statistics that I read indicate that you must be able to fire multiple shots. I believe it was 2-3.


I do believe bigger bullets are better , but not at the cost of not being able to fire accurate, multiple shots or having a gun that you will actually carry.

 

[Sean Smith]

Obsession with handgun bullet momentum as a factor in stopping a hostile attacker is sound evidence that you don't know what you are talking about.