University Newspaper Article Re: NIU Shooting

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http://www.dailytoreador.com/home/i...story_id=909a7f6c-4c23-4cc3-aafb-d9b8a8cff8e3

Texas, Illinois gun laws analyzed after campus shooting
Jon Vanderlaan
Issue date: 2/18/08 Section: News

Despite having some of the strictest gun carrying laws in the United States, Illinois has experienced three mass shootings near Chicago in the last two weeks.

The first shooting, which occurred Feb. 2 in a Chicago mall, resulted in the deaths of five people. The second shooting, which occurred Thursday in a lecture hall at Northern Illinois University, resulted in five students' deaths and the killer's suicide.

Illinois does not allow its citizens to obtain a concealed carry weapon permit and does not accept other states' permits, one of only two states in the United States to impose both of those restrictions. Illinois also requires every gun owner in the state to carry a firearm owner's identification card.

James Dark, executive director of the Texas State Rifle Association, said Illinois could be labeled as an "unarmed victims zone," and the citizens of Illinois are deprived of their rights to protect themselves.

Dark said incidents like the Northern Illinois University shooting highlight his belief that campuses would be safer if people could carry weapons on the campus.

But Doug Pennington, the associate director of communications for the Brady Campaign to Prevent Gun Violence, said more people carrying guns on campus is not the way to go.

"That's crazy," Pennington said. "The answer is that there were four too many guns in Cole Hall."

Pennington said the United States makes it too easy for dangerous people to get dangerous weapons. He said more random people armed with weapons would result in more shootouts.

The Brady Campaign is a grass-roots organization that works to enact and enforce sensible gun laws, regulations and public policies through activism, electing public officials who support gun laws and increasing public awareness of gun violence, according to the campaign's Web site, www.bradycampaign.org.

Gordon Hoffman, deputy chief of the Texas Tech Police Department, said from a police perspective, it would be a bad thing for students to be able to carry weapons on campus.

Hoffman said there would be the potential for the police to confront an innocent person carrying a gun, and they could be mistaken for a shooter.

He said he believes there are no conceivable redeeming outcomes for students carrying guns on campus.

James Mills, co-owner of Gun Creations in Lubbock and a former police officer, said he believes all students have the right to carry guns to school to protect themselves.

Though Mills said he was once shot on duty, that has not changed his belief that people should have the right to carry guns.

"I wasn't shot by a gun," Mills said. "I was shot by a 14-year-old."

Tom Mannard, executive director of the Illinois Council Against Handgun Violence, said he does not wish to ban handguns; his job is to talk about the risks involved in ownership and educate people about handgun ownership.

Mannard said people have two options: to accept this type of gun violence as a way of life in the United States or to look at the availability of weapons in this country.

"The one thing we would all agree on is that no one wants to see innocent lives lost," Mannard said.

It is the responsibility of lawmakers and society to minimize the risk of gun violence, he said, and one of those ways is to impose more restrictions. However, he is open to any discussion and wants people to have open discussions in which all perspectives are discussed.

Even though Texas does not require citizens to have an identification card to own a weapon, Dark said Texas has one of the strictest training requirements and charges one of the highest fees in the nation for people to obtain a concealed carry weapons permit.

Dark said all those who wish to obtain a permit must go through a 10-hour training course and pass a written exam.

According to the Texas Department of Public Safety, the applicant must also pay a $140 fee.

The Department of Public Safety also would have lifetime access to a permit-carrier's medical records, and would refuse or revoke a permit if the person were being treated for depression or other concerning mental illnesses.

There currently are two major bills in the Illinois House of Representatives regarding gun control.

The first bill would require all ammunition in Illinois to be stamped with a small serial number. This bill also would require sellers of this serialized ammunition to charge buyers five cents extra per round.

Richard Pearson, executive director of the Illinois State Rifle Association, said the increase in the cost of ammunition would make it more difficult for the average citizen to purchase it, but would have little effect on those who disobey the law.

The second bill would allow citizens of Illinois to obtain a concealed carry permit.

The Illinois State Rifle Association, Pearson said, is one of the main supporters of that bill.

Just wanted to throw this out there and see what you all thought of some of the statements made by the various parties that were quoted in the article.
 
Why?

What do YOU think of it? Do you have an opinion in the matter? Or are you one of the people who is waiting for other folks to figure out what your opinion should be?

ACT! DO SOMETHING! Write! Call! E-Mail!
 
1+1 = 3?

Aside from the poor mathematical skills, not bad.

I liked the store owners comment about being shot by a 14 y/o, Brady was...well...Brady and the police officer kind of scares me with that attitude.

Police are only supposed to respond with violent force if threatened, correct?
I would assume any sane, law abiding CHL holder is going to be yelling something to that effect, while dropping to the ground and making every effort to show compliance. Should not be difficult to sort out the good from the bad...
 
The Brady Campaign is a grass-roots organization that works to enact and enforce sensible gun laws.

Do reporters get a cracker every time they use this description? Do you think they could swallow calling the NRA a 'grass-roots' organization as well?

The ammo serialization bill is just the flavor of the week here; there is also a bill seeking to ban the carrying of billy clubs in IL being promoted right now.

Yes, now in addition to the pistol I can't carry legally I will be made safe by being denied my right to carry a stick around.
 
Gordon Hoffman, deputy chief of the Texas Tech Police Department, said from a police perspective, it would be a bad thing for students to be able to carry weapons on campus.

Hoffman said there would be the potential for the police to confront an innocent person carrying a gun, and they could be mistaken for a shooter
.

Question for any LEO's, School Officials, Law Makers, etc.. (and others who just want to chime in) here...

So it's better for people who find themselves trapped during a psychos rampage, to wait 30min (or longer) for Law Enforcement to show up and confront the shooter?

Do LEOs recommend that when the psycho walks up to you and points the gun at your head, we stall for time until law enforcement can arrive? Something like... "Now is not a really a good time for me. Can you come back in 45min to an hour and shoot me then?" :banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead:

No offense to any LEO... If I or my family was in that situation. I would take a 60yr old woman with her CCW right then, than ALL the LEOs within 50 miles, 30min to an hour later.
 
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The article was not well written.

Who gets shot in every shooting event? People. Are they passing a law that issues kevlar to all of us? No. Instead, they are focusing on laws (microstamping) that would have made ZERO difference in regards to the actual crime committed.

They are dictating that WE ARE ALLOWED TO BE VICTIMIZED, by criminals if we do carry, by the "Justice" System if we do.
 
Gordon Hoffman, deputy chief of the Texas Tech Police Department, said from a police perspective, it would be a bad thing for students to be able to carry weapons on campus.

I wonder if they feel the same way at, oh I dunno, UT-Austin?
 
:
Gordon Hoffman, deputy chief of the Texas Tech Police Department, said from a police perspective, it would be a bad thing for students to be able to carry weapons on campus.

Hoffman said there would be the potential for the police to confront an innocent person carrying a gun, and they could be mistaken for a shooter.

Question for any LEO's, School Officials, Law Makers, etc.. (and others who just want to chime in) here...

So it's better for people who find themselves trapped during a psychos rampage, to wait 30min (or longer) for Law Enforcement to show up and confront the shooter?

Do LEOs recommend that when the psycho walks up to you and points the gun at your head, we stall for time until law enforcement can arrive? Something like... "Now is not a really a good time for me. Can you come back in 45min to an hour and shoot me then?"

No offense to any LEO... If I or my family was in that situation. I would take a 60yr old woman with her CCW right then, than ALL the LEOs within 50 miles, 30min to an hour later.

*cough* In case anyone wants to contact him: [email protected]
 
Hoffman:
He said he believes there are no conceivable redeeming outcomes for students carrying guns on campus.
Not very astute if he can't conceive of a single redeeming outcome. There might also be negative consequences, but you can't ignore the possibility of a result like the one at New Life church in Colorado.
 
Too many speculation...

Pennington...said more random people armed with weapons would result in more shootouts.

Speculation...

Hoffman said there would be the potential for the police to confront an innocent person carrying a gun, and they could be mistaken for a shooter.

Speculation...

...he (Hoffman) believes there are no conceivable redeeming outcomes for students carrying guns on campus.

Intellectual belief does not equal facts.

Too many speculations and false predictions. Applying CCW on campuses would test to see if it works or not.
 
Wouldn't it be better to have a shootout than a massacre? Seems to me a shootout is what we are striving for. A shootout denotes two parties on equal ground. No martyr, or criminal I've ever heard of wants those odds.
And as for mistaking the ccw for the bg, we could simplify it for the responding Leo's: Can you give us a description of the shooter? Sure 5'9 skinny, .45 size hole in his head, no need to send an ambulance.
 
judging by the time frames invlolved, the LEOs will have no trouble IDing me as not the shooter. I won't be shooting anymore by the time they get there. They'll find me chillin in my seat with a holstered, empty gun. i won't look like much of a threat.
 
<Doug> Pennington said "more random people armed with weapons would result in more shootouts."

Ah, but at least it would be a shootout, not just a slaughter. God forbid I was ever placed in such a situation I might not win, but give me a chance to FIGHT BACK!
 
Emailed the Chief:

Chief Hoffman,

I read the article in the Toreador, noting in particular your views. If the DPS issues someone a CHL, that means they have passed ‘the test’. If the DPS is OK with a civilian carrying, you should be too. Now, I realize that Concealed Carry is currently verboten at state universities per Texas law, but I’d like to see that changed.

Unless you can guarantee every student’s individual safety and well being at all times they are on campus, how can you deny them the ability to defend themselves? Concealed Carry has been a reality in Texas for some time now, and the predicted apocalypse hasn’t materialized yet.

I'm just a Tech alum, but I would hope you open your mind a little. I once was asked why I would want to carry a gun. My answer? A cop is just too heavy to lug around 24-7.

Regards,

K3
 
I can't point to any annectdotal one way or another but I'm assuming so.

You missed my point. UT-Austin is where the clock tower shooting happened, and armed students did indeed make the situation demonstrably better, by helping police pin the shooter down with their hunting rifles.
 
Gordon Hoffman, deputy chief of the Texas Tech Police Department, said from a police perspective, it would be a bad thing for students to be able to carry weapons on campus.

Hoffman said there would be the potential for the police to confront an innocent person carrying a gun, and they could be mistaken for a shooter
.

How is this different from the same person CCWing off-campus?

Or to put it another way, cops in Austin, Houston, Dallas, San Antonio don't shoot CCW-holders by mistake. So clearly the Texas Tech Police Department, by their own deputy chief's admission, are less competent than other cops.
 
You missed my point. UT-Austin is where the clock tower shooting happened, and armed students did indeed make the situation demonstrably better, by helping police pin the shooter down with their hunting rifles.

I suppose I did miss your point. I thought you were talking about the present day rather than 40 years ago. Students on UT-Austin campus cannot carry concealed either, as far as I know and I'm guessing if you put a camera and a microphone in the face of the UTPD chief of police, you'd get the same boilerplate, company line BS that Hoffman gave.


How is this different from the same person CCWing off-campus?

It's not. simply put: it's not.

Or to put it another way, cops in Austin, Houston, Dallas, San Antonio don't shoot CCW-holders by mistake. So clearly the Texas Tech Police Department, by their own deputy chief's admission, are less competent than other cops.

I think that despite his best intentions, this is exactly what he said. But I don't think that such is necessarily the case. I think it's just a matter of not wanting to have another contingency to have to plan for.
 
I think that despite his best intentions, this is exactly what he said. But I don't think that such is necessarily the case. I think it's just a matter of not wanting to have another contingency to have to plan for.
In other words, he may not be saying his cops are incompetent, he could be saying he's incompetent.
 
Even though Texas does not require citizens to have an identification card to own a weapon, Dark said Texas has one of the strictest training requirements and charges one of the highest fees in the nation for people to obtain a concealed carry weapons permit.

What a misplaced fact. Fact is that this TX law ONLY limits which lawbiding citizens can actually conceal carry. Does nothing to prevent the wrong people from getting guns. Sheesh. With logic like this...:barf:
(There are ways for the poor to get a reduced/waived fee, still this little fact has NOTHING to do with anything mentioned in the article.)
 
The Department of Public Safety also would have lifetime access to a permit-carrier's medical records, and would refuse or revoke a permit if the person were being treated for depression or other concerning mental illnesses.

I wonder if they can get copies of my medical records faster than I can? :neener:
 
Quote:
The Department of Public Safety also would have lifetime access to a permit-carrier's medical records, and would refuse or revoke a permit if the person were being treated for depression or other concerning mental illnesses.

I wonder if they can get copies of my medical records faster than I can?

My understanding was that the state will only know whether a person has been found by a court to be mentally handicapped in some way. Your medical records are not open to public inquiry. It would take a court order to break the doctor-patient privilege. Am I wrong on that?
 
You are partially right and partially wrong.

Generally speaking, yes, it takes a court order to violate patient-doctor privilege. But there are already conditions - like HIV, syphilis, and gonorrhea - where a diagnosis legally REQUIRES physicians to report the individual to the government (generally the local health department, so they can contact people who have had contact with the individual and do damage control). I would imagine such a law could be enacted for mental health, where the doctor would have to report certain mental diagnoses to the sheriff instead of the health department.
 
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