Unwilling to pull the trigger.

[wideym]

Yesterday I ran into an old High School friend who I haven't seen in 20 years. We went to lunch at a nice restaurant and when she suggested I remove my jacket, I told her I couldn't because of my concealed pistol would show.

She wasn't horrified or alarmed but she told me about what happened to her a few years after graduation. She moved to Little Rock for a better paying job but had to move in to a bad part of town until she could afford a better place. Her father instead of giving or loaning her the money for a better neighborhood instead bought her a Lorcin pistol for "self defence". He just gave her the pistol and a box of ammo and that was it, no range time, no instuction, he did not even test fire the gun. She told me that eventually a co-worker showed her how to load it and offered to take her to a range, but she never took him up on the offer.

About six months after starting her job and moving into her new apartment a man entered her apartment around 3:00am and cornered her in the bedroom. She pointed the gun at him and he pulled out a knife telling her to drop the gun or he would kill her. She dropped the gun. He robbed, beat, and raped her telling her he would be back.

I asked if the gun malfunctioned and she told me that she "just could not pull the trigger on another human being". She has been through counciling and still has problems. I asked her if she could now after what she had been through and she replied that she still wasn't sure.

Later I asked my sister who has a CCW permit, if she could pull the trigger. She said "Yes, I'm 4'8" 90pounds and wouldn't stand a chance against a man." At least I know my sister doesn't think a gun is a magic talisman and is willing to shoot to protect herself.

 

[Winchester 73]

Almost certainly a true story.
Some people,even at the risk of their lives,simply can't pull the trigger.
It's apparently inherent in their nature.

 

[Claude Clay]

that mind set is not like the sheepel. its just part of her moral fiber that makes all people a little different in a lot of ways. good luck to her.

 

[Valkman]

He tells her he'll be back and she's not sure now if she can pull the trigger? Unbelievable.

 

[serrano]

Horrifying story - but it's not the first I've heard of individual's unwilling to pull the trigger in self defense. I've never heard it qualified as "just could not pull the trigger on another human being" - I've only heard it attributed to being completely terrified in the moment, nothing altruistic.

 

[lvcat2004]

That is a sad story indeed. Dropping a loaded gun on an assailant is like asking to be shot with your own gun. Lucky she survived it, but sad indeed. I can somewhat understand how she couldn't harm another human being, but that seems somewhat lacking in insight IMHO....if you don't, it's obvious you're going to get hurt or killed...I wonder if some training in shooting would have remedied that hesitation and saved her from her troubles.

 

[bogie]

Part of it is training instinct and reflexes. Her instinct and reflexes were conditioned by polite society. Can't do a lot about that without hands-on time.

There are a lot of soldiers who cannot bring themselves to kill. That's why the brass concentrates on flinging large quantities of lead...

 

[Feud]

There are a lot of soldiers who cannot bring themselves to kill. That's why the brass concentrates on flinging large quantities of lead...

Reminds me of an interview I once saw of a WWII German soldier. He didn't like Hitler and didn't want to fight, but was drafted anyway, and placed on the Western front.

As he put it (paraphrasing), "since I didn't want to hurt anyone but couldn't refuse to fight, I just made sure to shoot way above their heads when battle came... maybe that's why we lost."

 

[ArfinGreebly]

Inherent . . . NOT!

It's apparently inherent in their nature.

Uh, no.

It's a matter of indoctrination.

When you've been "educated" long enough and often enough that "violence is not the answer," and that you must always "turn the other cheek," and that whatever you do you "mustn't anger the assailant" then the above scenario becomes downright predictable.

If, on the other hand, your training includes self defense, proper weapons use, the understanding that you owe the bad guys nothing, then the scenario plays out much differently.

Nothing "inherent" about it.

When presented with a high-stress situation, we revert to our level of training.

She was trained to be a victim.

 

[Kind of Blued]

Up until a few years ago, a few years before I considered legally taking my safety as my own responsibility (as it unfortunately HAS to be), I pretty much knew that I would live my life and die peacefully, without ever having to kill anyone. It's just something that an inquisitive kid who inevitably watches TV or sees a movie thinks about.

I still have not, and I probably never will, kill anyone. I'm still a really sympathetic person, and don't want to harm anyone. I don't know if there is a way to condition survival instincts without truly testing them, but I assume I was born with the instincts necessary to keep myself alive in the face of evil, tyranny, a meth-head with a knife, or however you want to think about it, or however you want to phrase "potential death".

As much as I would hate to have to shoot someone, to be honest, it would seem like sunshine and lollipops if I was to compare it to such an activity as terrorizing, robbing, beating, and raping an innocent women. I would rather be forced to shoot and kill a dozen men like this, than have to do what he did to one woman. Make sure you read that a few times slowly before commenting on it.

Unfortunately, in this world, if evil is going to be stopped, in the aforementioned situation, that guy has to be shot. Thats how I see it, and that is how I think it is.

I think your friend's situation may be that she doesn't want to have to deal with death in any capacity. Making the decision to pull the trigger is taking a step toward having to deal with death immediately. Putting the decision in someone else's hands is, for all intensive purposes, doing nothing to personally make dealing with death more certain.

Do you think she is more afraid of death as a concept, or dying as a personal experience? Not really lunch conversation, but I think that might be where her actions came from.

Let me know if I'm thinking too much, or if any of that makes sense.

 

[Sylvan-Forge]

Victimology - Psychology

MDeViney, I think your onto something there.
Also, some victims believe crimes happen to those who deserve it, therefor, since they were victimized they must deserve it.
Swings from "it won't happen to me" to "if it happens, oh well"
Possibly a poor relationship with her da to boot. (Sure doesn't sound very caring - a Lorcin, no instruct, no financial 'elp..)

Sounds like she needs some self-esteem.

And/OR

wideym,
No offense intended, but, did you sense she was putting you on in some way?
Hitting on you or anything untoward?

 

[Kind of Blued]

Sounds like she needs some self-esteem.

Right. It sounds like she is unaware that she is simply worth more to this world than some other people out there.

At the same time, who can read Crime and Punishment and not sympathize with Raskolnikov? In this sense, I agree with Arfin. Some people see criminals as soulless monsters, some see them as disadvantaged human beings, and there is a whole lot of drama in between.

 

[Standing Wolf]

I asked if the gun malfunctioned and she told me that she "just could not pull the trigger on another human being". She has been through counciling and still has problems. I asked her if she could now after what she had been through and she replied that she still wasn't sure.

We don't all learn life's lessons.

 

[Fish828]

very very sad story. that should never happen to any person. i wish her luck in getting over that incident, even though i know it is impossible to do so fully. i could see how, aside from her saying she can't shoot another person, that being in that situation with a weapon you have zero experience with against an armed and threatening intruder how nerves or intimidation could get the best of you. what happened to her is an absolute worst case scenario, aside from being killed. there are just simply times when you need to put your life above that of others. you need to do what you have to do to survive.

 

[Eric F]

To kill is not so easy for some even at the threat of loosing their own life. Had she pulled the trigger weather she mit or missed , or killed or just wounded the BG she would have likely needed counciling any way. This is a case of the strong need to look out for the weak in society. In her case perhaps just a friend coming over to her place to say hey perhaps you need ADT syatem for $30 a month. Any thing could have helped really. It is very unfortunate that this happened. She may never be able to pull the trigger now.

She was trained to be a victim.

exactly, how does this happen? lack of upbringing is all I can think of, being trained as a child that because we live in america all will be provided. All to common IMO.
This is why it is important to remember thet guns are just not for every one, and just because a person is a non gun owner does not mean they are an anti. Often times here on THR I have seen people get harped on for their view point of gun ownership or shooting practices. The fact is no one here can be that bad wether they own a gun or not. Every person posting here gets an automatic progun ownership rating just for being a member of THR.

 

[RDak]

Yes Eric, it might be a "lack of upbringing". My father instilled a very strong self-defense philosophy in me when I was very young.

I was not trained to be a victim. My father saw alot of action in WWII and he told me, in no uncertain terms, that my right to self-defense was absolute and never be afraid to protect myself from attack. He drilled this philosophy into my head on a consistent basis. I've passed that philosphy down to my loved ones.

Maybe it's just as simple as that? Or as ARfin said - "indoctrination"? Makes sense to me FWIW.

For all intents and purposes, for whatever reason, the woman being discussed is a coward in the final analysis IMHO. (I don't mean that in an insulting way because her being a coward is what she was probably indoctrinated to do.)

And to those who train people to be defenseless sheep(?)..... well, I better keep my thoughts to myself on that one. I don't want to be banned from this site.

 

[Fred Fuller]

http://thelawdogfiles.blogspot.com/2008/03/she-was-doing-everything-she-was.html

'Nuff said.

lpl/nc

 

[RLsnow]

Wonder what`s worse, the after effects of being raped in your own home, or the after effects of having killed an intruder...

 

[ambush]

You can't look at someone who is trying to beat and rape you as a human being. If he returns, next time pull the trigger.

 

[geekWithA.45]

Why did she drop her gun?

he pulled out a knife telling her to drop the gun or he would kill her.

Right there, in that moment, she had a greater belief in the bad guy's willingness and ability to kill her, than in her ability to stop him from doing the same.

Period.

Full stop.

He offered her a thoroughly believable deal, (which easily could have been a lie) she evaluated it, and she took it.

Unless you believe yourself to be as dangerous, if not more so than an adversary who would rape you, it's a deal a lot of people would at least entertain.

All she had was a cheap handgun and 3 minutes of instruction on loading it.

How many times have we seen n00bs hands SHAKE and hesitate the first time they fire at the nice, friendly range?


There is no reason in the world that this would ~should~ believe she had any capability to stop him from carrying out his promise.


Guns are not magic talismans.

Somehow, criminals know something that the gun grabbers don't: that the gun isn't the dangerous element, it's the person holding it.


------------------------------------


As gun fighters, even if we never clear leather or fire a shot, this is something we all comes to grips with. We acknowledge that we wish no harm to anyone, but that under the right circumstances, to defend that which we love, we can be very dangerous people if we must.

Every time we look in the mirror, we see the face of a killer, if need be.

And we either become OK with this, or we hang up our guns, or we're fooling ourselves.

There's no 4th option.

 

[Linda]

I have to disagree "that she was trained to be a victim". Whether someone grows up in the most anti gun family or the most pro gun family on the block, it is inherent in who we are, as to which path we will take. Not everyone on earth is of the same mindset as most of the people here. There are people who just flat out could never kill another person even if it means they die themselves or at the least have a VERY difficult time living with themselves if they took anothers life. I have a difficult time understanding that as well, because in my mind, I KNOW that my life is of more value than the criminals. But, I can not force someone else to have that same moral value. Many victims will try to project their morals upon the criminal, and then wonder why, when they complied, he did whatever it was that he had threatened anyhow. We can not force someone to pull the trigger let alone carry a gun.

When I instruct classes, I will tell me students that "if you can not tell yourself 110% that your life is of more value than the criminals, and you can not say to yourself that yes, you could pull the trigger if need be, then DO NOT carry a gun. Hesitation WILL get you killed".

 

[UglyAllDay]

I am truly sorry your friend had to go through this ordeal. I think a lack of training played the biggest part in not being able to defend herself. The piece of garbage did something so basic that we all do it everyday-and that is gage (judge) the person in front of us. Now for whatever reason (her hesitation, fear, unwillingness to follow through...) he played the odds-his knife was more likely to be used than her gun. I think she could get to the point where she could rely on herself and use all the force neccesary to survive. It just boils down to proper training.

 

[Bubbles]

Even people who grow up knowing how to hunt and shoot can have a problem with pointing a gun at another person. Part of it may be due to the "Four Rules" firearm safety training - a lot of folks interpret them as "never ever point your gun at another person", and after decades of that kind of self-indoctrination, they may hesitate to use a gun for self-defense even if it is legally and morally permissible to do so. That hesitation can be deadly.

I'm certainly not advocating ditching the Four Rules. Far from it - I think that following them strictly has drastically reduce the number of accidental injuries and deaths due to gunshots.

What I am saying is that if you are planning on carrying a gun for self-defense, you need to get some advanced training where you are put into shoot/no-shoot scenarios with another person using Simunitions, Airsoft, etc, so that your psyche is ok with the concept of having another human being in your sights. I'll admit that after many years of "Four Rules" training, which was pounded into me, and which I pounded into other new shooters, pointing the "business end" of my CCW handgun at another person and dropping the hammer (it was a Simunition drill in a training session) felt just wrong at first. I was quite surprised at the feeling, because like folks here I just knew that in a self-defense situation that I'd be able to pull the trigger.

 

[Ithaca37]

Reminds me of an interview I once saw of a WWII German soldier. He didn't like Hitler and didn't want to fight, but was drafted anyway, and placed on the Western front.

As he put it (paraphrasing), "since I didn't want to hurt anyone but couldn't refuse to fight, I just made sure to shoot way above their heads when battle came... maybe that's why we lost."

I love stories like that. It goes to show you that wars are mostly about politics and often the people fighting them don't really think as highly of the cause as the politicians do.

As for the original post, some people don't believe in taking another persons life. It is a personal moral thing. I wouldn't judge them on it. It is a very big deal to take someone's life. Often times it is trivialized in self defense discussions, but it is a big deal. Just look at how messed up veterans are after coming back from war.

 

[Ala Dan]

The Bible tells us that the taking of another's life is a sin; but I'm not
so sure that GOD wants us to stand a'round and be a victim~?

Even tho', the wages of sin is death per the Bible- I think GOD is
great, and that all sins (including a self defense type killing) can
and will be forgiven on Judgement Day. If not, HELL will surely be
packed with unforgiven souls.