Unwilling to pull the trigger.

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Most newsreel footage I've seen (including from the current conflicts) shows a great deal of spray and pray... They may be shooting single shots or 3-round bursts, but they're shooting a LOT of them. I suspect that they're basically saturating the area around a suspected position with lead, in hopes that something actually hits.

"Hey, Sgt. Bubba! Abduhl's in that shack shooting at us!"

"Well, then, Private, light it up!"

You know, I never have had to specifically shoot anyone, but I don't think I'd have a lot of problems with it, if it was a situation where someone actually needed shooting. Then again, I'm not wired like most neurotypical folks. I don't think I could just commit a random murder - I don't understand how the guys who do stuff like drive-bys and hit kids, etc., can live with themselves...
 
At risk of being crass...as Geek points out, she may have been quite rational at that moment in time in the estimation of her own capabilities, but I for one wouldn't want to have to gamble my life on a Lorcin popgun at contact distance with a knife. I'm not arguing that she necessarily was fully aware of her limitations, but rather that from a certain point of view, she may well have made the right choice that instant. If it had gone "click" instead of "BANG", things may have turned out differently, for the worse. Or she may have gotten phenomenally lucky and succeeded in emptying the mag, hitting the rapist, and stopping the threat. There are some people out there whose instinctual response would be to lunge into the knife, while shoving the barrel into his eye socket, but very few can do that on demand.

Obviously there were a number of major mistakes made up until that point, and perhaps after, but I'm not so certain that fault can be found in her decision.
 
In one report of the Colo church shooting, it stated that there were either one or two men who had their guns drawn, but did not shoot.

A lot of people are not prepared to shoot, but do not know it until faced with the circumstances. I suspect some on this very board would not be able to shoot although they have not idea at this time.

Best,
Jerry
 
Wonder what`s worse, the after effects of being raped in your own home, or the after effects of having killed an intruder...

I don't wonder. I made that call long ago when I bought my first firearm.
 
it's a form of hypocrisy for some

My sister is one of these who swears she "could never pull the trigger." She's an emergency room doctor in Houston, and says that after seeing so many people shot, she could never do that to another person.

That's definitely not a result of her upbringing. My dad, a man who VOLUNTEERED to go to Viet Nam, taught me, my sister and my mom how to shoot. I grew up on a ranch in rural Texas, and we used to go shooting on our property pretty often. My sister was the only one who never had any enthusiasm for it. My mom used to keep a .22 handgun loaded in the suburban at all times, and you can bet your ass she'd have used it if anybody threatened her kids. And me, I own a bunch of guns, have been boxing and doing mixed martial arts for 9 years, etc. Not exactly a pacifist hippie family.

But when some guy was following her around her apartment complex and sliding dirty pictures of himself under her front door and seemed to be a break-in threat, she refused to arm herself. My dad tried to buy her a gun. I tried too. We both decided in the end it would just do more harm than good. Apparently she is truly unwilling to pull the trigger, even on as close to a worthless piece of trash as God's ever made.

I even broke out my best argument: that it's hypocrisy to say you're against violence and against guns if you're willing to call the cops (which she had done more than once already). Because who are the cops? Men and women with guns. When they arrive-- if they arrive in time-- isn't there a good chance they'll shoot the guy on your behalf? How is that better than you pulling the trigger yourself? If you're truly committed to a higher path, like, say, Gandhi was, then you won't even call the cops. Otherwise, you should buy a gun or two, learn how to use them, and become willing to do your own dirty work.

She was even able to agree to the logic of that, but said she still couldn't do it. Very honest. I respect her for it, too. She's a very gentle soul whose only goal in life is to help people (as a doctor). And the cops got that guy who was bugging her on some other outstanding charge, anyway. So now I just have to hope she'll marry some guy who knows how to hurt people and is willing to do it in defense of his family. I'll buy HIM a gun. Things could still work out just fine.
 
Bogie got it right. Some range time and training probably would have nudged her over that mental line to where she would have fired.
 
Bogie got it right. Some range time and training probably would have nudged her over that mental line to where she would have fired.

Would never happen as per SCMtns post.
NOTHING will make this woman pull the trigger.She's a born victim.
 
No. She was indoctrinated and conditioned to be a victim.

People can change over time. Nothing about you is engraved in stone.

Just like with school kids and "lockdown." They're conditioned to hide under desks rather than retreat or attack. As those kids mature, predators are going to have a generation of easy targets.
 
With that kind of mentality, she shouldn't be eating meat, since it's from a living being, right?

If she's a vegetarian... well, she's still eating AND killing living organisms inside the plants!

Death is sadly apart of life. If you want to live, then you've got to kill... that includes killing a criminal seeking to kill YOU!

They need to be trained in real world thinking: kill or be killed

The father was stupid for not CARING enough to TRAIN her with the gun, and TELL her to USE it, if the time ever comes!

I talked to my mother a few weeks ago, and told her I want to get her a gun.

She said "Just get me a .22"

I said "Ma, that's just too small of a caliber to be truly effective against a raging criminal... unless you aim right for the head, and it's a .22 Magnum; that's very risky to take your chances on, since no one is a perfect shot, especially in a highly emotional sitatuon, with their lives on the line. I at least want to get you a 9mm, or even higher if you can handle it (Glock 20 in 10mm, if she could grip it well, would be my first choice; or G29 if for concealed carry)."

She says "Well... I don't want to kill the person."

I couldn't believe what I heard.

I said "Ma (I'm originally from NYC, so I do have a slight 'noo yawk' accent, ;)), it's kill or be killed, in the real world. Do you think I want to brutally slaughter someone, just for the heck of it? No. Would I rather shoot him with a sleeping dart? Or a Star Trek photon knock-out laser thingamajiggie?! Of course! But this is the real world, ma, and it's kill or be killed. You do NOT hesitate to kill a person coming after you to kill or rape you. Do you understand? You pull that trigger without hesitation! I don't care how scared you are, how intimidating he/she is to you... you pull that trigger!"

She finally gave in, and accepted what I said as the correct thing to do.

I'm going to take her to the range, and train with her on different situations she could be in alone on the street. Sneaking up behind her and putting my hand over her mouth, while grabbing one of her arms... then her practicing how she can quickly reach for her gun in a case like this, etc.

People've got to wake up today; it's like someone has brainwashed them to be gentle little sheep.

If we don't kill murderers, then we let them run rampant on the streets to kill MORE people, and therefore WE'RE partially to blame for the deaths of others! Because we didn't kill this cancer to society! It's that plain, and that simple.

Criminals literally are cancers to society, and when you meet cancer face to face, you've got to kill it, or else it's going to kill you and others.
 
Some are beyond help...

...she told me that she "just could not pull the trigger on another human being".

Someone once told me, "The good Lord helps those who help themselves."

Decisions have consequences.

If this woman was unwilling to protect herself, then don't expect my compassion meter to get pegged at the consequences she suffered.

Some people haven't figured out that stupid hurts.

Some people never figure out that stupid hurts.

John
 
I don't understand how the guys who do stuff like drive-bys and hit kids, etc., can live with themselves...
It's called being a sociopath. They have little or no ability to empathize with others. Your life has no more value to them than that of a cockroach does to me.

As for me, my life means WAY more to me than that of somebody wrongfully trying to take mine. Don't want to get shot? Don't put me in reasonable fear of life and limb. I may be simple minded, but that just doesn't seem that all fired difficult to me...
 
I have thought I might have to shoot on a few occasions. Every time I hoped I wouldn't, but didn't doubt that I could or would if it came to that.

I have no desire to harm anyone but I have been shooting handguns since 1963 and have confidence in my ability to shoot effectively if I have to. An assailant has decided that his own life is worth less by making that decision about mine.
 
Guys, the poor girl was given a Lorcin, and probably next to no training. Probably NO training. She had no idea what she was doing with it. Her plan probably was to scare the bad guy. When he didn't scare, she didn't have a backup plan. It's that simple.

Lesson: Don't just give someone a gun. Give them more. Give them knowledge and experience.

A gun is NOT an all-purpose tool. It will not allow you to walk bulletproof through a ghetto. It will not keep jacked-up road ragers from deciding that they don't like you. It will not safeguard you. YOU are what takes care of you. The gun's just a tool, and if you are not used to it, and familiar with it, and actually have a plan, well, you're in a world of hurt.

Half of y'all sound like you're blaming the poor girl, same as a bunch of y'all were blaming the poor coeds who got killed a little while back. If someone has not been TAUGHT something, do not expect them to know it, okay? Ignorance can be cured. But some of y'all are just being stupid. Or at least acting like it. So straighten up, okay?

Poor girl got hurt, and hurt bad. Because of what she'd likely been taught all her life. We're here to teach people that there are other avenues.
 
No. She was indoctrinated and conditioned to be a victim.

Guys, the poor girl was given a Lorcin, and probably next to no training. Probably NO training. She had no idea what she was doing with it. Her plan probably was to scare the bad guy. When he didn't scare, she didn't have a backup plan. It's that simple.

You're wrong,bogie.It's that simple.:neener:
 
I may be wrong, but at least I've got a plan.

More than be said about most folks. Most folks get told "freeze and do nothing" and that's what they do.

It's what folks did on the three of the four jets on 9/11.

The airline travel mindset changed -completely- that morning. But in our schools, our young people are still being taught to cower and do nothing.
 
She pointed the gun at him and he pulled out a knife telling her to drop the gun or he would kill her. She dropped the gun. He robbed, beat, and raped her telling her he would be back.

I asked if the gun malfunctioned and she told me that she "just could not pull the trigger on another human being". She has been through counciling and still has problems. I asked her if she could now after what she had been through and she replied that she still wasn't sure.

I am very sorry to read of this. :( I hope she finds peace.

While I disagree with her reasoning, I will not be her judge. What it does show is that if you are not willing to pull the trigger on another human being, you are better off without a gun. Subhuman predators can sense this. Simply pointing it at someone to threaten them, without the resolve to use it, is worse than useless - it could get you killed.
 
She dropped the gun. He robbed, beat, and raped her telling her he would be back.

I asked if the gun malfunctioned and she told me that she "just could not pull the trigger on another human being".
:mad:

Big mistake to view someone who would do that as a "human being".

Rabid dog is a more accurate description. And should be treated accordingly.

:fire:
 
Stories like this always make me wonder. I regularly practice at the range, well as regularly as finances allow, I've owned guns for as long as I have been legally allowed and from playing "sports" I am comfortable aiming a weapon-replica at another human being and pulling the trigger as many times as it takes for them to go down, call their hit, or whatever it may be. But, when reading stories like this, I cannot help but wonder, if I was faced with a situation like that, would I hesitate not shoot? Would I give the BG enough time to pull something off, or would my instincts take over and just do a few double-tap practices on him from 5-7ft away? While, I think that I would probably go ahead and do the latter, I still have that nagging uncertainty that I might be so freaked out as to do the former! My take is that you cannot ever tell how you're going to act in a given situation until you are in it. Stories like this always gives me a pause when reading them.
 
I may be wrong, but at least I've got a plan.(bogie)

Hey,I could be wrong about this woman but we'll never know for sure.
And I like your plan and go through life with the same high awareness of my surroundings of which you speak.
Unfortunately,it appears that some human beings(granted a small percentage)just cannot gather the will,the fortitude,the basic precepts of self preservation and they just stand there, or lie there, or sit there and allow the most horrible,atrocious,hideous acts to be perpetrated upon themselves, without being able to lift a finger in self defense.
Ten percent of the worlds population is homosexual and 12 percent is left handed.Some believe these traits are inherent,others that they are learned.
I truly believe a small portion of the human race is inherently born to be defenseless,unable to defend themselves, victims.
Just in this thread 2 vivid examples have been given.And Linda,who is a firearms instructor ,and certainly has insight into the human psyche under pressure ,has indicated in her post that there are people who would be in more danger being armed than not,with their propensity towards non-violence.
Peace bogie,we are on the same page and the same side.:)
 
Conditioning

I see that my statement
She was trained to be a victim.
is not universally popular.

Well, phooey.

There are some possibilities to consider.

1) People are entirely a chemical & physiological construct, capable only of a) whatever they're genetically programmed to do, or b) whatever they're conditioned to do. This assertion assumes that conditioning is entirely physical/physiological, and that it will override genetic programming in "most" cases, but not all. I do not endorse this view.

2) People are the product of evolution (see above), but have somehow "evolved" a conscience, morality, ethics, values, and all of that high-falutin' philosophical stuff. People are still "programmed" genetically, but their "brain" can override this stuff, especially if a) properly conditioned (see above), or b) confronted with a sufficiently "energetic" event (catastrophe, trauma, etc.) which allows their "brain" to overcome the "programming threshold." I know this will shock you, but I don't endorse this, either.

3) People are more than what's physically represented in front of you. In this case, it can be argued that the thing that makes anyone "who he is" is some non-physical (and probably immortal) mind/soul/spirit/whatever thing, and this "thing" (spirit) is what does the thinking and feeling and all of what makes humanity human (making me sort of a "created in God's image" kinda guy). Now, by definition, you wouldn't "program" a non-physical entity genetically or "condition" it physically. No, you'd have to teach it. Whatever it gained by way of ability, it would have to learn. And that means that any attitudes it has toward survival are also learned, one way or another. Which implies that these attitudes and stuff can be unlearned and re-taught (or re-learned). This also implies that the person is much more responsible for his own condition than current "conventional wisdom" would have you believe. It is this construction of the human condition that I most closely endorse.

It will therefore come as no surprise that I would declare that a person acts like a victim as a result of what that person has learned. Now, it's also possible to become a victim through a lack of learning, but this doesn't exhibit the same way, and it's not reasonable in today's society to declare that someone has NO learned attitude regarding survival, given the amount of effort expended in our schools to "socialize" the children.

I'm not going to argue the "nature of humanity" question, I'm simply explaining how it informs my viewpoint on personal responsibility and learned behavior.

This girl held a gun, which rational thought would inform had the capacity to stop a bad guy, and yet she overrode that and dropped the gun. It's kind of splitting hairs to argue "she was trained to be a victim" versus "lack of training made her a victim," the point is that her behavior was essentially learned -- more importantly the correct behavior for this situation is LEARNED.

When the heat is on, we fall back on our training or lack of it. She had either decided against such training, or believed other training that said it wasn't needed.

Either way her state of training was that of a victim.

I'm not going to buy condemning her to the fate alloted her by genetics, as that simply dooms her from the start, and implies that it doesn't matter what training you get, you're still gonna do what the genes say. I would submit that generations of data contradict that view.

You want to survive? Get the training that makes it possible.

You don't want to get the training? Well, doom on you, then.

If you can't get formal training, then at least train yourself as best you can.

Doing NOTHING and hoping it will all turn out okay . . . formula for disaster.

Even at this late stage, this girl can be trained to defend herself. What happened to her sucks, but it doesn't have to define her life.

That's what's cool about being human: we can out-learn and out-train our shortcomings and traumas.

Train the girl. And train her some more. And bring her to a level of competence where there simply cannot be a repeat of this heinous incident.

The magic is in the training.

Get some.
 
call it conditioning, reflex, fear/survivalism, or the good ol' killer instinct if you want...

she simply did not have it, did not learn it, did not develop it, did not embrace it.

It's sad to hear of this, but at least she lived.

also, I think it has to do with what you gather or learn from your upbringing and surroundings more than anything. You could even bring that down to gender if you want (from a 'general sense', of course). Most boys grow up playing contact sports, fighting each other, and being attracted to violence in some way (movies, games, etc. are good examples for today's youth) about as soon as they start pre-school, whereas alot of girls are brought up in just the opposite.
 
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