Used Suppressors

[hentown]

I did apologize for the sandbagging. In my defense, however, I didn't ask a rhetorical question. I simply made a statement that was challenged by a couple of NFA "experts."

It's not my problem that a guy posts a copy of a section of a code and doesn't understand what the code is telling him. I don't mean that as a jerk, but I've three times now brought attention to the section describing who pays the tax. The tax is NOT paid by the transferee. The tax, IF A TAX IS DUE, is paid by the transferor. If that's too complicated, then perhaps anybody not understanding would like to send his own e-mail to the NFA directorate?

Once again, I do apologize for the sandbagging. Seems like the sandbagging wasn't really sandbagging, though, as my posting a copy of the e-mail that I received from ATF didn't seem to settle anything with a couple of folks. I THOUGHT I was being helpful to the OP by supplying the CORRECT information about the transferring of an NFA device from a governmental agency to a private citizen. My authority was an actual e-mail from the governing agency, not the speculation of internet experts.

Being the nice guy that I am, IF the local sheriff follows through with his promise to transfer the aforementioned items to me (acutally to my LLC), then I'll post the results in this forum.

Oh, yeah, the reason I originally contacted NFA headquarters in D.C. is because local agents, all the way up to the Atlanta field office didn't have a clue.

 

[Ranb]

I did apologize for the sandbagging. In my defense, however, I didn't ask a rhetorical question. I simply made a statement that was challenged by a couple of NFA "experts."

You made a statement unsupported by the US code. Please post a link to the section of the code that supports your claims.

I am not an expert on the law by any stretch of the imagination, so you don't need to throw around your "expert" accusations my way. You may have noticed that I gave direct answers to your questions, but you have failed to answer mine. Why is this?

It's not my problem that a guy posts a copy of a section of a code and doesn't understand what the code is telling him. I don't mean that as a jerk, but I've three times now brought attention to the section describing who pays the tax.

But you are claiming to be a jerk (sandbagger). You have not demonstrated any knowledge of the law other than the content of an ATF form and who pays the tax. The opinion of some anonymous employee in the NFA branch 9 years ago is not the law. I have posted a link to the law, can you show us in the US code where it allows you to receive an NFA firearm from a government agency on an ATF form 5?

I THOUGHT I was being helpful to the OP by supplying the CORRECT information about the transferring of an NFA device from a governmental agency to a private citizen. My authority was an actual e-mail from the governing agency, not the speculation of internet experts.

If you want to convince anyone that your e-mail is indeed real, you could forward it to those of us who want to see it so we can contact the branch that might be giving you bogus information. An e-mail from the NFA branch contains zero authority.

You need to put as much effort into reading the US code as you claim to do sandbagging on the forum.

 

[Bubbles]

http://www.atf.gov/files/forms/download/atf-f-5320-5.pdf
Read Block 1 and Instruction 2(b)(3). Yes, transfers both to and from a government agency also are tax-exempt on a F5.

 

[Ranb]

Bubbles,

Have you heard of these tax free transfers from the government to an unlicensed individual taking place at all? I am all for it but I just don't see where it says this in the code. Even though the form 5 and instructions say "to or from", the US code section 5853 only says transfers "to" the government are exempt. Thanks.

Ranb

 

[Bubbles]

Bubbles,

Have you heard of these tax free transfers from the government to an unlicensed individual taking place at all? I am all for it but I just don't see where it says this in the code. Even though the form 5 and instructions say "to or from", the US code section 5853 only says transfers "to" the government are exempt. Thanks.

Ranb

No I haven't heard of any, but that doesn't mean that they don't happen. Most government agencies wouldn't sell off their firearms, whether Title I or Title II, to individuals anyway unless it's a retiring cop taking his duty pistol. Usually the guns go to a distributor for credit against replacement firearms, handed off to other government agencies, auctioned off in lots to FFL's, etc.

Anyway, I'm guessing the reason that you couldn't find it is that you were only looking through the US Code and not the CFR's, which is actually where you find the "meat" of most firearm laws. I had to dig a bit but I did track it down at Title 27 CFR Chapter II, Part 479.90(a).

 

[Ranb]

Thanks Bubbles. This is exactly what I was hoping hentown could have provided to back up his claim. My copy of the ATF's Reference Guide has this section but I only read the parts I quoted earlier in the thread. They do seem to be a bit contradictory don't they?

Ranb

 

[Aaron Baker]

Well, I'm certainly man enough to admit that I stand partially corrected.

It seems that both the Code of Federal Regulations and the Form 5 say that the transfer to or from a governmental entity is tax-free. However, the US Code itself only specifies that the tax is not paid when there's a transfer to a governmental entity. For my part, I simply could not imagine that the ATF would have promulgated regulations that were more permissive than the statute which authorizes them. But apparently they did!

To hammer that point home a little: Congress, by statute, told the ATF that you can't charge a transfer tax when the transfer is TO a government agency. The ATF, in making their own regulations to enforce the law, decided that they weren't going to charge the tax TO or FROM. They would have been well within their rights as an agency to charge the tax when the transfer is from a governmental agency to a private individual.

Derision aside, I do consider myself something of an NFA expert, and I'd never realized this was possible. It's probably because, as Bubbles points out, there are very few circumstances in which a governmental agency would ever consider transferring their NFA firearms to a private individual. No one can point to a specific example of it ever happening. That doesn't mean it hasn't, and the law certainly seems to indicate that it can.

hentown, I hope you understand why you got the reaction you got. It isn't because we want to rain on anyone's parade. You made an unsupported statement that would seem unusual to even people who are familiar with NFA transfers. The US Code doesn't actually say that's allowed, and that's what Ranb quoted that you kept saying supported your point. It doesn't. The Form 5 supports your point, but the Form itself isn't law. Until I saw it in the CFR that Bubbles posted, there was no reason for me to believe it was possible other than your say-so. And we all encounter people all the time that think they know things about the NFA, but don't. Also, the ATF does have a long history of telling people incorrect information by letter and e-mail. (For examples, check out all of the tech branch letters out there that are contradictory and the shoe-string machine gun fiasco.) So your personal situation, which includes an e-mail from 2004 and a transfer from a sheriff that hasn't been approved yet, wasn't very convincing.

But, like I said, now that we've got all the regulations and statutes hashed out, I'm surprised to say it, but apparently Ranb and I were wrong.

Now, if we could all just find a kindly local sheriff willing to sell us all his old suppressors, SBRs and transferrable machine guns for cheap!

Aaron