using a laser on a shotgun.

[AcceptableUserName]

so it's no secret I'm trying to build the best possible pistol grip-only shotgun right now. I'm working off an M500 receiver. Hogue Tamer Pistol Grip and Overmolded forend. Going to use a Mesa Tactical shell holder. In the future, I may convert it to a type of 500 breacher/590 (extended tube, heavy barrel) but not right now.

I'm wanting to mount a laser on this shotgun. I suppose I have two options. Barrel/magazine tube clamp with picatinny rail and pressure switch on forend, or putting one of the Havlin rails on top of the receiver where they screw in and having a pressure switch mounted on the pistol grip.. I want a laser that's going to stand up to the recoil of 2 3/4" buck and slugs indefinitely and I want to be able to mount and adjust it windage wise somewhat closely. Most people throw lasers on their guns and guess to where it's "good enough" just using it as a guide. That would defeat the purpose of the hassle, I'd just use point shooting tactics at that point. I want this as close to the middle of a 15 yard slug hit or 00 buck pattern as possible.

How would you proceed? I know a lot of you view the whole thing as worthless, and compared to a simple, stripped down shoulder weapon I'd have to agree. but this a project gun and I think I can make a pretty nifty weapon out of it if I work at the details and iron out the kinks. The PGO is a very specialized weapon and not my first choice but I have a good amount of practice with it and properly setup, wouldn't feel outgunned with one.

So how and where would you mount the laser? how would you use the pressure switch? How would you sight it in? How do the lasers hold up to recoil? I'm probably going to go with a decent quality green laser, but working out the mount layout will the first task.

 

[RevolvingGarbage]

Have you thought about a vertical foregrip front-end on it? Maybe oven a railed forend with a rail mounted foregrip. This would give you a rail to mount a laser on, and a convenient place for the laser pressure pad, and probably help with controlling the gun as well.

You could even make the pressure pad sit on the "trigger" area of the foregrip.

 

[AcceptableUserName]

I have not. Thanks for the suggestion. Usually I hate the vertical foregrips, but it makes sense in this case. The railed forend isnt a bad idea either...that way I wouldnt have to have a ton of pressure switch cord to deal with.

 

[ArmedBear]

You could just mount a laser to the barrel on top. Why not?

Hip-shooting is about the best option IMO - I can get off multiple rounds, with decent accuracy, hip-shooting without a laser. The position allows you to control recoil quite well with a PGO gun, at least with a bird's head grip, which is all I'd use.

Since the gun won't be in front of your face, you don't need a good sight picture, because there IS no sight picture. There's no real reason not to just mount the laser on the barrel.

With the right technique and some practice, I think that could make a formidable defensive weapon that would fit in a small space.

 

[oneounceload]

Have you seen the various clamps from candewman.com? He makes a variety for all sorts of devices

 

[AcceptableUserName]

I guess I'm mostly concerned with the cleanest mount using a pressure switch and the most natural position for obtaining an accurate spot for that laser. Right now I'm kind of leaning a bit heavy towards a railed forend so I don't have to use a ton of cord on the pressure switch. Laser mounted to the lft or on the bottom with the sensor pad under my index on the right of the forearm. I've seen the Candewman clamps and am considering those. I'd go with one but the cord would be longer that way. When it comes to lasers and lights I prefer complete control so the switch being closer is better, going without a switch isn't a good idea imo and a long cord is just clutter.


Has anyone ever modified their current forend to accept a rail and pressure switch or know someone who does? (sanding, grinding, cutting, etc.). I like this Hogue overmolded forend a lot...If anyone has a guide or tutorial for that, yes please.

 

[Leadhead]

With your Mossberg's control layout I'd go with the speedfeed witness protection pistol grip....

 

[AcceptableUserName]

very nice!

 

[Dimis]

acceptable did you look into the mesa tactical barrel mounted rails? you can get a section of rail as close to the end of the bbl as possable and that helps with laser alignment and keeping obstructions away from the laser too

 

[Tamren]

I could see putting a light on a shotgun forend, but won't you have trouble with your laser's zero wandering around every time you pumped the gun?

Nice work though, let us know how it turns out!

 

[Leadhead]

I could see putting a light on a shotgun forend, but won't you have trouble with your laser's zero wandering around every time you pumped the gun?

Nice work though, let us know how it turns out!

Not sure if you are talking to me.... but mine is for a light.
I agree a solid mount on the barrel would be better for accuracy but I think a laser mounted on the foreend would probably get you on target ok......

 

[AcceptableUserName]

I forgot about the zero wandering around, that's a good point...the fact that it still offers the cleanest mount with a pressure switch is still desirable to me...


if possible. I'm looking at doing exactly what Leadhead did now that I know it can be done on the same exact forend (thanks again Leadhead), but instead making the cut on the bottom of the forend in front of my hand, mounting the laser there and having the cord sensor end up where his rail is or a little rear of it, which will be where my index finger will be. MOA couldn't differ more than 6" In any event, I wouldn't think, which is probably good enough for me considering I'll be using some old school high spread buckshot types, like the Winchester Mil Spec. I feel that's desirable with this gun. Might compensate a little. Any suggestions on a very sticky placement for the sensor? Keep in mind this forend is rubberized.


I'm also very open to suggestions on laser types. I'd ask this question in the pistol forum because lasers are probably for more commonly used there, but their lasers also aren't soaking up double aught and 1 0z slug recoil. My only requirement is that it's a green laser (so visible during the day), accepts a short (non coiled) pressure switch and will withstand the recoil, and accepts batteries commonly or relatively commonly available.

Worked out properly, I think this could make a very workable and space conscious trunk gun, provided I can put it all together in a durable and reliable manner....this is never intended to be a replacement for a shoulder fired scatter gun with bead sight...no sir, you can't take that away from me!

 

[AKElroy]

Have you seen the various clamps from candewman.com? He makes a variety for all sorts of devices

+1. I just ordered a mount for a TLR-2 for my 1300. It is as advertized. I am very please with it--rugged, wide, well made.

 

[AcceptableUserName]

If it comes down to not being able to set a laser on the forend for a grab and go type setup, I'll definitely go with a CDM clamp. No other clamps are even in the discussion as far as I'm concerned. I just won't be able to use a short pressure switch with it and that's very desirable to me. The less to worry about the better. Grab, grip and shoot. If someone wants me dead, god forbid, I don't want to be reaching for a switch.

 

[DammitBoy]

How about this?

http://www.cheaperthandirt.com/SCP140-1.html

 

[AcceptableUserName]

doesn't work on a 500, not currently available. Plus I need a green laser.


The idea is good though. I considered using on on the Wingmaster PGO I had. It'd be awesome on an 870 SBS AOW, provided it was quality.

 

[tkopp]

Just go for a saddle rail, mount the laser on top via a mount designed to hold optics. This gives you room for a larger laser and gives you a much firmer base for holding zero. It's not like you're going to want to do a lot of shooting holding the shotgun up in front of your face without a stock.

Unless your dentist needs a new car. In which case, offset the laser and cowitness that bad boy with your irons!

 

[AK47]

I'm into this project soon myself, and choosing the right shotgun over here that could simplify this process is my major problem these days, coz there are few shotguns available over here with tactical rails. I'm thinking however of a Turk Tomahawk SA-1800 that has got a picatinny rail on top of the receiver.

Anyhow, to be topic specific, let me say, I'd by no means have a laser sight placed by barrel end, coz no matter how solid a laser you get out there, zero setting retention at this point, in my opinion at least, would be close to nil. I feel somehow, the top of the receiver would be the best place for it, leaving the barrel end for a flashlight that doesn't depend on any settings whatsoever. The buttstock, however, course gotta be side-folding in such an event.

 

[AK47]

Btw, I am a die-hard fan of hip-shooting with accuracy. And your idea about the "green" one is the only practical option, unless you only intend it for night use only.

 

[AcceptableUserName]

Thanks for the input. I'm running pistol grip only right now, no side fold, no top fold. FWIW I'd always go with side fold (I like the Butler Creek) considering the top fold options that are out there. To be honest I'm a little wary of how the folder mechanism will hold up with time and use.


It's kind a matter of weighing the checks and balances. It seems I'm not going to get everything I want/need with any one mount option, so I'll be happy with getting "close enough". I've gotten pretty accurate hip shooting actually and had a fair amount of experience now with it, so depending on the degree of zero loss with forend/clamp mounted laser, it may just be wasted money if I put it there.

All in all, I'll be happy if I can get a 3-5" area from the target to work with, above or below or slight combination of the two. I'm ok with mounting the laser on the receiver, but I'm a little concerned with it snagging on something there if it needs to be removed from it's mount and used in a hurry. Be it contacting the edge of a vehicle door, the wall, heavy clothing. I over-analyze I guess.


I'm unfamiliar with the guns that come standard with rail mount capabilities, especially where you are. I know the Remington tactical express guns sometimes come with receiver rails, the M500 always comes with a drilled/tapped receiver, but others, not sure...

 

[AK47]

Mossberg guy...........would you mind telling us of some of your experience with hip-fires by the use of lasers? I mean, what have you been targeting, distance, types of laser sights used, etc? Thanks in advance.

 

[AcceptableUserName]

I haven't, that's the thing. I have zero experience with it, but I feel it would be the only feasible way to improve upon the deficiencies of the pistol-grip only shotgun. Without a laser, by and large it's only something I'd trust at4-5 times arms length at the most or as a pray and spray weapon. It seems like the laser would greatly increase speed of accuracy, especially at night. I for one would have a lot harder time keeping track of my muzzle angle instinctively at night. In the day I have kind of learned to use my wrist/elbow in conjunction with "corner of my eye" vision to get fairly accurate hits at 15 yards.

I've shot around 11-1200 shells, mostly low-base bird shot but also plenty of 2 3/4" buck and slugs out of a pistol grip shotgun employing hip/point shooting methods, both on an 870 Wingmaster and a few Mossberg 500's and at ranges varying from 5-30 yards. I have to by and large agree with the "ol tymers" around here (who I am STILL learning things from) that advise against it, but I personally feel it can be...adequate. Especially if the laser option works out. Still not my first choice overall, but a serviceable tool.


As for as my express intended use of a laser...I'd like to ideally get, at worst, center mass-sized groupings and patterns at 20 yards at the MOST (a shot at the range would PROBABLY not be highly thought of in legality terms) with a sturdy and reliable green laser. That's the ultimate goal. Basically a bedroom/hallway/limited property use gun to pick up when securing my family and CALLING the police (not clearing rooms ). Part of the reason I want this is for space concerns - my house is very small and narrow. Even an 18.5 full stock gun leaves a lot to be desired in maneuverability and retention even when employing "low ready" type positioning. And I feel it would be easier to grab and go with the smaller tool than the larger one in the dead of night. Add to this the fact that I have a busted AC joint in my right arm (shouldering a heavy shotgun is do-able, but not fun, right now I may fumble the gun to be honest) and you have my reasons and intent. You guys may disagree, but I've put plenty of thought into this. I could still be wrong, but it isn't for lack of planning.

 

[zhyla]

When I read your initial post I thought "whatever, he's just building a toy project shotgun for fun". Now I read you're actually thinking of using it for defense. Please don't take offense, but I think this is bad idea. My main reasons are:

- I think retention on a PGO shotgun is really poor, the attacker has a huge amount of leverage against your strong hand.
- Laser dots, even green ones, don't show up well in bright light. You need to ID your target before shooting, which I assume would involve a flashlight at night time.
- You need a huge amount of your body visible to hip shoot from behind cover.

Why not just use a pistol if you're currently not able to shoulder a long gun? I know this is the shotgun forum but pistols get the job done too.

 

[AcceptableUserName]

no offense taken. They're all valid points. The main reason I don't use a pistol for HD (right now) is for the same reason. It's not exactly the weight of the shotgun as it is the movement required to shoulder it. Once my arm reaches above the top of my ribcage level, a good amount of pain comes in. Granted, I probably wouldn't notice it with the adrenaline going. and I could deal with it if the stakes were high like that, but I don't want to gamble on it. It seems to have a mind of it's own too as it comes and goes. I could probably point shoot with the pistol...but in that case I'd feel MUCH more confident with a shotgun in terms of hit capability and overpenetration concerns as I currently only own a single stack .45...I haven't actually shot a gun much at all shoulder-mounted or eye level in a few months. I'm supposed to have the surgery pretty soon. Definitely itching to shoot some clays and pistol targets, believe me. The whole shoulder thing is fostering some bad habits too. I like the idea of learning to hip shoot with the shotgun capably more than I like the idea of messing with my already less than stellar pistol work and spray and praying with 230 grain .45 slugs...

As for lasers in bright light, you're correct. I don't view a green laser as a cure all. In the summer on a bright day I can hardly see a green laser at all from any meaningful distance. The laser would be there mostly for night use. I'm actually fairly pleased with my daytime hip/point shooting with the pg as it is, and I'll probably alternate some "old school" style 00 loads (Winchester Super X/Milspec, Sellier & Bellot, you know the looser stuff) with some 1 buck and number 4 buck so I have a decent spread going on like this - 00, 1, 00, #4, 00. I would usually go strict 00 federal flitewad out of a shoulder mounted weapon but you can see my method of thought here I think. Not worried about possible fliers and peripheral hits too much as my family are all situated against the same side of the house in neighboring rooms. If it comes down to it, this is a hallway gun, more than likely. Hopefully it will never have to be. And as far as slugs go, I did mention them but they're out of the question for me for home defense, not as much because of penetration as shooting them out of the pgo is going in the opposite direction of what I want to accomplish with it and is playing directly to the gun's weaknesses. So ya, I'd like the laser to be able to help me use slugs but that's just a gratuity.

Just my thoughts. You're perfectly welcome to tell me how I'm wrong. Because I just might be. I would've been first in line to tell someone NO! Don't use a PGO! Six or 7 months ago, but for whatever reason I decided to get back on the horse and build and shoot them until I REALLY found out what's up. And while I still must agree a shoulder stocked weapon is inifinitely better overall, I can see the merits of a PGO and it makes sense to me in my current situation...

 

[zhyla]

You're wrong.



Kidding, sounds like you're just making the best of your medical issues and there aren't any good solutions.