Using machine guns for self-defense

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.cheese.

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I see it come up every so often that you could use a full-auto in self-defense.

I just read a small blurb in my Florida Firearms book that was interesting. Apparently, firing an automatic weapon anywhere other than a range could end up giving you life in prison. It is permissible to use an automatic weapon in self-defense, but should it be found that you unnecessarily jumped to lethal force, the usage of an automatic weapon would be a massive felony on top of an already massive felony.

I don't know if that applies to other states too or if it's just Florida. I must have skipped that section originally thinking "Who cares about this, I won't ever own any NFA stuff." - but a recent interest in getting a suppressor had me rereading the section of NFA stuff and I ran across this. The author strongly recommended against ever using an automatic in self-defense.

Anyways, just thought I'd share that.
 
"unnecessarily jumped to lethal force" doesn't matter if you're using a M240B or a 22lr derringer. If it's a good shoot, it's a good shoot. If it's bad, it's bad.
 
It probably depends on the "machine gun". What's the difference if I shot an assailant with 3 bullets from a Glock 17, trigger pulled three times or a Glock 18, trigger pulled once? Now, if I shot him with a 100 bullets from my Dillon Mini-gun, yeah, that might be ruled excessive force.

If it weren't for the ban on machineguns, I suspect that they would now be as popular as AWs. A "clean shoot" is a "clean shoot".

The two things that make MGs outwardly different than a semi-auto are:

1) you hold down the trigger for repeat shots
2) you get a consistent and possibly faster rate of fire.

They're really not the magical killing machines that the antis make them out to be. Fire an Uzi and you'll come to two conclusions yourself:

1) "That was fun"
2) "Why the hell are these banned?"

Keep in mind that "Machine gun" is a made-up term like "Assault Weapon". It really isn't an accurate description of the gun. Most automatic weapons don't have specially "machined" mechanisms, save for again, the Dillon Minigun which is externally powered by two 12V batteries.
 
If it was considered a bad shoot and felony charges were brought up it might be a major headache because I think there are extra punishments for using NFA in a crime (if it was a REALLY bad shoot). There are SOTs that have used MGs to defend their businesses though.
 
"unnecessarily jumped to lethal force" doesn't matter if you're using a M240B or a 22lr derringer. If it's a good shoot, it's a good shoot. If it's bad, it's bad.
History doesn't work that way unfortunately, as there is more political motivation to go after the guy that defended his house or person with an MG than with a shotgun. There have been noted examples posted in that past where an obviously good shot ended up with the guy on trial and in massive debt where it was unanimously concluded that he would have gone home that night with no charges ever filed if it was with a shotgun or rifle instead of an assault rifle.
 
MisterPX said:
If it's a good shoot, it's a good shoot. If it's bad, it's bad.
Prince Yamato said:
A "clean shoot" is a "clean shoot".

Heh. Yeah. Tell that to the jury of your "peers" who have been brainwashed by media.

Silly rabbit(s)....

:rolleyes:

What VARifleman said.


-T.
 
could you not find yourself in civil court even for a "good shoot"? then it could matter.

probably depends on the state you live in but not in mine. That said, it is not always as simple as good shoot or bad. Things get spun and if it is in the gray area or you live in an area that isn't as strong in its beliefs that one can and ought to defend themselves you probably want as few things that can be spun as possible.
 
There have been noted examples posted in that past where an obviously good shot ended up with the guy on trial and in massive debt where it was unanimously concluded that he would have gone home that night with no charges ever filed if it was with a shotgun or rifle instead of an assault rifle.

can you post some? The only ones I've seen are "idiot gets in car, has high-speed pursuit and shootout with thieves", "idiot shoots fleeing car theft attemptees down the road with AK47", and "idiot pursues unarmed BG with assault rifle and fires into a neighbor's property in the process"

all of those cases would have brought forth charges regardless of gun type.

I'm just curious to actually see some where the jury went "black rifle! squabble squabble guilty!" Thanks :)
 
"A machine gun for self defense isn't the best idea I've heard all day."



I am generally inclined to agree, but what if the assailants are approaching at squad strength or larger?
 
but what if the assailants are approaching at squad strength or larger?

Open fire on them, taking down as many as possible before they scatter like roaches. The rest are most likely going to run in unorganized panic, since a loud gunshot or two (or more) will attract far too much attention to their grab-n-go plan. Your goal won't be to take them all, but just to fend them off until backup arrives (which should be minutes away).:p
 
it doesn't matter if they say "black rifle! squabble squabble guilty!", if it prolongs the trial, you're talking about many tens of thousands of dollars that you don't have to keep yourself from being wrongfully put in prison.

From they Ayoob files, The Gary Fadden incident (which actually happened about a year before I was born in my area):

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0BTT/is_168_28/ai_112685749

The selector switch and manual safety of the AC556 are in two different locations. Gary has not yet fired this weapon and, though he has taken off the safety, he doesn't know whether the switch is set for semi, three-shot burst, or full auto. He yells "Stop or I'll shoot," points the muzzle upward, and pulls the trigger for a warning shot.

The weapon is set on full automatic. Everything is going into deep slow motion, and Gary is aware that the Ruger spits a burst of nine shots before he can get his finger back off the trigger.

There is no effect whatsoever. The attacker is still running at him, perhaps ten yards away and closing fast, reaching for knives at his belt with each hand. The assailant screams, "F*** you and your high powered rifle! I'm gonna kill you motherf***ers!"

And Gary Fadden has run out of time. He lowers the Ruger, points it at the charging knifer, and pulls the trigger one more time. in the ethereal slow motion of profound tachypsychia, Gary can see the spent .223 shells arcing lazily out of the mechanism. He stops the burst, aware that six shots have been fired, as the man in front of him falls heavily to the ground.

-snip-

Though Fadden heard no shots and no bullets hit his truck, he was convinced then and now that they were shooting at him during the chase.

Hamilton's two knives, a Schrade folding hunter and a nondescript fixed blade, were found with his corpse.

-snip-

Gary Fadden was arrested that night and charged with 1st degree murder. His family raised $60,000 bail. He hired DC attorney Gerry Treanor to defend him. Treanor, at Gary's request, retained John Farnam and I as expert witnesses. Today, Gary remembers, "Two prosecutors wouldn't touch it until the third took it. It was all political because of the automatic weapon."

-snip-

At the end, when it was announced that the jury had found Gary Fadden Not Guilty on all counts, Fadden recalls that the self-same prosecutor snapped--in open court, in front of Gary's mother--"'You've let a murderer loose!"

"'H&K protected me," says Gary. "They picked up the tab for about half of my legal bills, and got all the publicity for it, until I quit a few years later. Florian Deltgen (at that time CEO at HK) told me after an argument with the vice president that one or the other of us probably had to go, and the vice president wasn't going anywhere. I accepted a job offer from Beretta USA and then resigned from H&K. Deltgen stuck me with the remaining bill, which I paid off at 10% interest." The bill had amounted to more than $45,000. Gary was 34 years old before he had paid everything back.

Dr. Deltgen is no longer with Heckler and Koch.

Lessons

Have communication. In 1984, only the rich had phones in their cars. Today, Gary Fadden is never without a charged-up cell phone. He knows that if he'd had one that day he could have called the police, who would have been able to interdict his pursuers before the thing became a killing situation.

-snip-

Understand how deterrence really works. Papa Zoot and Too Loose had guns and amino and knives in their truck with them. In Gary's truck were a Remington Nylon 66.22 rifle (for plinking, and never touched during the incident), a 9mm HK VP70Z pistol, and the AC556 with enough amino for perhaps tour full magazines. None were loaded at the start. The pistol was loaded and placed in the console during the chase, and the rifle was at that point loaded and placed conspicuously on the dashboard by Gary in hopes that it would deter file pursuit. It did not.

When Gary Fadden stepped out of his new Ford at the climax of the chase, most of us would have seen him as an intimidating presence. The man stands six feet eight and weighed 260 pounds at the time, and he was holding a machine gun. His pursuers were unimpressed.

-snip-

Gary Fadden sums it up today, "The mouse had run, and the cat was loose. Physical size was no deterrent. The gun was no deterrent with these people. If you pull a gun, you'd better be ready to use it."

Politically incorrect "assault weapons" make politically incorrect defendants. Though he didn't say it in so many words, prosecutor Jack Robbins' case against Fadden seemed to be, "I say, Muffy, people of breeding simply don't shoot criminals with machine guns in Fairfax County! Now, had he used a civilized weapon like a Browning Superposed ... and preferably shot him on the rise ... "

You and I know that Class III holders are the ultimate "card carrying good guys and gals." That particular card says they have been investigated for six months by the Federal government and been found trustworthy to possess machine guns. Unfortunately, most of the public in the jury pool, and most politically motivated prosecutors, don't know that. Every self-defense shooting I've run across with a Class III weapon, however justified, has at the very least ended with the shooter facing a grand jury. Asked what he thinks would have happened if he'd shot Hamilton with a Remington 870 Wingmaster instead, Fadden replies with certainty, "I would have gone home that night. I've told dozens of people since, 'Do not use a Class III weapon for personal defense."' Today, the guns Gary is likely to have in his car have neutral images: an M-1 .30 carbine, and a 10mm Glock 20 pistol.
 
Unless you are a dealer/manufacturer, I think it would be troublesome to defend no matter how clearly rightful the shoot. I say "unless" because if you are that dealer/mfr, you might be in a position to say you had used such force to prevent more NFA type weapons from getting into the hands of criminals. That would be very fact specific.

As a practical matter, if you are fortunate and wealthy enough to own anything full-auto, it will probably stay in a very expensive safe 99% of the time, the other 1% being when you are using it at the range or showing it off to friends. It is not likely you will keep it ready at hand for problems that arise, much less CCW it around day in, day out.

In addition, there are not many scenarios in which full-auto is really necessary to defend yourself*, particularly if your other options might include a semi-auto shotgun, or a high capacity semi-auto centerfire rifle. Those cost a lot less and have fewer bad overtones when defending your actions. You're also 1000 times more likely to keep them accessible for defensive use, compared to an NFA weapon.

* I'm not saying I wouldn't want one myself, or that civilians shouldn't have them, or that we shouldn't try to repeal the 1986 FOPA amendment (which if you do a little research, you'll find probably wasn't actually approved in a remotely democratic manner). I'm just saying that until the zombie count is over 100, I wouldn't feel outgunned with stuff that is non-NFA.
 
No, I tryed to recite the Gary Fadden incident from memory.

The real story was above mine by thr time I had typed it all out.

I was pretty far off (wrong decade, wrong weapon, etc.) so I just deleted it and hoped no one saw my ignorance.

At least I got the H&K part right! (that's the part that stuck in my memory... "the Plant was Heckler and Koch." I wooted out loud when I read that the first time!)
 
A shady chacter at work once said (joking) he was going to my place and steal my guns.

I told him the first thing I would do is exit the house and empty a (FA) magazine into your car so you can't get away.
The next thing I would do make sure that you were alone.
Then I would empty a magazine into you and a magazine into anyone that may be with you.

He decided that coming around my place wouldn't be such a good idea.:D


Except for the fact that my M2 Carbine is always locked up and not readily available like the other HD guns I wouldn't hesitate to use FA if I had to shoot, especially against more than one BG.
 
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That story has all the markings of a guy doing everything wrong. Stepping out of the truck, etc... If you do stupid garbage like that, why would you be surprised that the prosecutor came down on you?

NFA weapons do not have hallowed magic powers. Unless you shoot somebody with something exotic like a grenade launcher or an anti-tank rifle, you really shouldn't have much to fear.

Seriously, machine guns aren't magical devices. It would be very easy to show a jury that they are not like the movies portray them to be.
 
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