Didn't Fairbairn/Sykes document over 600 actual gunfights on the streets?
Their observations from actual combatives with pistols on the streets would seem to suggest those who don't think you can move and shoot accurately enough to put men down and win, or that you aren't accurate enough to get the BG's to stop their actions and go down would fly in the face of evidence to the contrary.
As to moving and shooting accurately, the steel plates I use in the one on one training out here are no bigger than a human chest [ a -1 on the IDPA target ]. Over 90% of the hits by students on a flat out run, straight in, to the obliques, laterally, etc. starting at 15-17 feet one handed with a pistol.
9 out of 10 bullets into a mans chest at 4-6 rds per second, works out to something like 7-10 bullets on threat, in the chest in two seconds. I don't know anyone who's capable of sustaining that damage and returning fire on a moving adversary myself.
Years ago, not that many actually, most on this and other sites were stating threat focused trainers were "snake oil salesmen", teaching "voodoo" that was not possible without the use of sights.
They've been proven wrong in the last two years, by people like Matt, 7677 as well as myself both in FoF and live fire while moving and shooting one handed just as Fairbairn and Sykes recorded their results from the streets a long time ago.
Proven so wrong in fact [ right in front of them so the statements were no longer "claims" but evidence witnessed by others and the naysayers in real time, that some other trainers have jumped on this training in an attempt to catch up, never admitting they were wrong all those years they called it simply "snake oil".
I've seen Matt and 7677 shoot, as they have see me shoot while moving and not just moving but flat out on the move one handed. Both Matt and 7677 have met challenges in the past by others, and they've not been proven wrong once about the claims of what is possible in this area of discussion.
As to moving directly or obliquely into the threat [ charging the threat as it were ], and putting bulllets into threats------It's a valid technique, has worked in documented cases in the past by F/S and is still as valid today as then.
Men fall down to rapid hits the same as they did a long time ago. Will I be MORE accurate if I stop and shoot? You bet----Do I need any more accuracy than chest shots to the tune of 4-5 a second in that area?
You be the judge, but let me remind others that multiple hits on multiple organs will drop the blood pressure faster than the same amount of rds into a neat little group on one organ. Thats a tactic in and of itself, to consciously put rds into an area spread out enough to cause more organs to be damaged than just one.
Moving and planting to shoot will likely just get you shot. Period. Why stop moving unless you can't make COM hits to the chest? Then it's just a matter of training to be able to do so. In FoF, when the student is given the opportunity to act in that manner, he is shot just as much as the one he shoots, IF THE OTHER CAN SHOOT, which I'm not betting on that someone can't and find out he could, let alone at the distances from initiation of the attack. Tracking a man who moves 4-6 feet and plants is easy, tracking him while he is moving is more difficult, decreasing the chances of taking one if you are moving, not planted.
There are two mindsets [ if not more being discussed here ]. How much accuracy is necessary to put men down is a big one. Some seen to think accuracy will put someone down split seconds before by those "more accurate" shots while "planted" thereby creating a margin of safety not probable while shooting on the move. That might be the case sometimes, then again, what might ocurr is that by planting you are increasing your chances of taking rds as a stationary target.
As 7677 is want to say quite often, there's a time to move, but don't move just for the sake of moving. Move when it is advantageous and possible to do so [ thats not exact but close to his posted thoughts on the subject ]. Men may not go down with that little increase in accuracy any faster than if they took 4-5 with a slightly larger grouping or they may. I'll take chest shots in multiples into his chest anywhere while moving over planting into a stationary threat and making better "groups" of hits while putting myself at greater risk by doing so.
I understand many instructors with "credentials" as nationally known instructors with huge marketing programs and reputations teach the move and plant skills. It's not something that is going to change in the near future. They have their own curriculums, but let me say one thing about that and I'm out of this----when 7677 and I trained 9 people in Pa 18 months ago, two who had trained with these well known move and plant trainers multiple times asked if we could move and shoot, as they were emphatically told NO, it was not possible and make hits. After two days with us, these two [ and the others ] could do just that. One of them walked up to me and simply stated--I've been lied to for years.
Wow, I thought the debate about moving and shooting had been laid to rest in 2002.
7677, it was, for the few that were there. Others will probably want to see it for themselves as well, you know how that goes right?
Brownie
