Brief History of Fairbairn & Sykes Point Shooting

[bobaloo]

One thing I seldom see considered is Fairbairn's training budget. I read his book recently, and as I remember it was either 25 or 50 rounds TOTAL training ammo for his recruits.

Guys (like me) shoot thousands and thousands of rounds of ammo learning to use the sights fast, he was trying to come up with a system that would keep his guys alive with almost no training possible.

 

[Zak Smith]

Robin,

I agree with everything you said in your last post, and it sounds to me a lot different than Matthew's canonization of the "historical" PS methods.

This "debate" is clouded because the modern IPSC guys are saying, "OK... you don't use sights all the time.. AND?", and the PS guys generally seem to hate modern techniques and competition...

 

[SinistralRifleman]

Delivering the goods on the battlefield, one is NOT concerned with score or getting A hits. Though A hits are common using FAS and QK [ the system I use and have been trained in ], I'n not about to worry about geting B hits all day long in the real world. I'm not shooting for score there, I'm shooting to get rds on them and keep them on them until they are no longer a thread.

Shoot a steel match then where all the targets fall when they are neutralized.

If one doesn't have good gunhandling skills, one should shoot more, it doesn't have to come from the playing field.

That is a flat out false statement. I regularly see people improve gun handling and marksmanship through shooting competitively without any formal training. Local matches that cost $10.00 to shoot are essentially structured practice sessions that force the shooter to do things they might not choose to do on their own.

At normal ranges where else can someone practice drawing, moving and shooting in dynamic environments? Most public range prohibit holster practice, and you certainly can't move and shoot on a public range.

My premise is that anyone who competes regularly will have better shooting skills, than someone who does not shoot regularly at all or only studies pointshooting.

You should also be able to demonstrate that pointshooting is a superior technique by using it in competition. The targets don't move, they don't shoot back....heck you can even go look at where all the targets are like most people do if you want. If you're shooting a single stack 1911, we'll only judge you against others shooting single stack 1911s. Put up or shut up.

 

[brownie0486]

"Are you saying that USPSA/IPSC GM's use "THREAT FOCUS"?"

Thats exactly what I'm saying. Leatham doesn't use his sights on many of the stages of fire, he is not looking at them at all. Enos is not the only person to shoot grandmaster as you know.

"He does, however, mention 5 different aiming methods used depending on speed/distance/difficulty."

Yes, I'm aware of that. He has attempted to redifine, in his own terms, the threat focused methodology as a form of "sighted fire", which of course is only his opinion, and one not recognized for 60+ years before that.

"We're not saying they are the same. We are saying that in a controlled environment, one ought to be able to demonstrate the superiority of PS over whatever it is you're arguing against."

But I'm not arguing agaisnt anything, that may be why you can't get a handle on it when you state "whatever it is you're arguing against"

"Yes, because training value gained from FOF is more than just "paintball/airsoft hose-fests."

Of course, did you read something into what I wrote that indicated hose fest mentality?

"Furthermore, dealing with malfunctions on the clock under pressure is much different than dealing with a malfunction while putzing around by yourself at the berm."

Of course it is, and FoF will give you the same stress of clearing malfunctions as competition will. You can also certainly deal with malfunctions and learn to the same thing on your own. One of the fastest at clearing malfunctions I know has NEVER shot a match in his life. He practices at the range and induces the malfs, and he is greased lightening on the malf drills, like on autopilot. So one chooses to putz or train, but it does not have to come from the games to be good at it.

"What is your guys' thesis? This whole conversation never gets anywhere because the PS guys cannot separate any good points they have from hatred of modern technique and competition."

I know you are not talking about me here. I'm on record as stating competition has much benefit to gun handling and shooting skills. Hatred for the modern tech and comp? Thats a very wide brush stroke you are using sir.

Robin Brown

 

[Zak Smith]

Of course, did you read something into what I wrote that indicated hose fest mentality?

A couple guys with airsoft pistols are going to learn vastly less about anything than those same two guys doing FOF under a real trainer, if they can even do it without injuring one another on their own...

I know you are not talking about me here. I'm on record as stating competition has much benefit to gun handling and shooting skills. Hatred for the modern tech and comp? Thats a very wide brush stroke you are using sir.

Matthew is giving you guys a bad name, along with those CAR videos
http://www.sabretactical.com/C_A_R_/Video_Clips/video_clips.html

 

[Blackhawk 6]

Robin,

Captain Fairbairn made hardware an issue, not me.

The first thing he did was to replace the revolvers with Colt 1911’s in .45 for his larger officers and Colt 1903’s in .380 for those with smaller hands.

Evidently, he felt that the revolver was more of a liability than the single-action semi-automatic, hence the change. That is not to say that someone equipped with a double-action handgun can not shoot well.

Delivering the goods on the battlefield, one is NOT concerned with score or getting A hits. Though A hits are common using FAS and QK [ the system I use and have been trained in ], I'n not about to worry about geting B hits all day long in the real world. I'm not shooting for score there, I'm shooting to get rds on them and keep them on them until they are no longer a thread.

The objective on the battlefield is to deliver an incapacitating hit to your opponent as quicly as possible. Particularly, when a handgun is involved, shot placement matters. If your chosen system, whatever it may be, does not allow you to consistently place rapid hits into vital portions of your opponent's anatomy on the battlefield, it is no good. If it is capable of doing so, I fail to comprehend how this can not be demonstrated on a piece of cardboard.

Well, that may be your opinion, but lets take a look at that a minute. At the "sightless in Tucson" threat focused shooting event where 7677, Matt and I were instructing over three days in Oct., there were 1911's, glocks, Sigs.

I think you are missing my point. The officers of Fairbairn's day were equipped with revolvers and their training consisted of one hand bullseye shooting at long distances. He equipped them with 1911's, taught them point-shooting and had them practice under combat conditions. I would submit that he could have just as easily given them 1911's, taught them sighted-shooting and had them practice under combat conditions and there would have been improvement.

For some reason there is an unwillingness to acknowledge that the point-shooting piece may not have been as significant as some would like. Or it may have been the most essential piece. I honestly do not know. Perhaps you could explain to me why it was the point-shooting that made the difference and not the realistic training or the change in weapon system.

 

[brownie0486]

Blackhawk 6: Good post and thought process.

For some reason there is an unwillingness to acknowledge that the point-shooting piece may not have been as significant as some would like. Or it may have been the most essential piece. I honestly do not know. Perhaps you could explain to me why it was the point-shooting that made the difference and not the realistic training or the change in weapon system."

I honestly think it was a combination of weapons platform change, the realisitic training and the techniques used in concert together that made the change for the better and not just one, or the other.

"If your chosen system, whatever it may be, does not allow you to consistently place rapid hits into vital portions of your opponent's anatomy on the battlefield, it is no good. If it is capable of doing so, I fail to comprehend how this can not be demonstrated on a piece of cardboard."

I agree, and I have demonstrated as much on the playing field. Mid B class shooter the first time out with no sights. Many wins on the plate racks against A class sighted shooters with sighted arms for 6 years.

Robin Brown

 

[brownie0486]

"I'd say that the way to settle it is to have an accomplished point-index shooter go up against a IDPA high score shooter with paintball guns at 30 paces.."

I can't answer for others, but as an accomplished PSer, I'll be going to sights at 30 paces [ thats 90 feet ].

"A couple guys with airsoft pistols are going to learn vastly less about anything than those same two guys doing FOF under a real trainer, if they can even do it without injuring one another on their own..."

I couldn't agree more with the above. Also, it should be recognized that some trainers who are almost exclusively making a living on the FoF training still don't have a clue about what works on the street.

In our sightless in tucson class, several of them had been to one of these "progressive" trainings, and learned not all was as it was thought after the training they received with us during FoF using threat focused methods they now had under their belts as well.

As to CAR, I have been trained in that particular method as well. I was able to get very fast, accurate shoots on one and multiple targets using it. I don't personally feel it is a better stand alone system and won't use it regularly in my own life, but two of the techniques have added value for me which I have incorporated.

One being while seated in a car and coming under attack from either side, the other for potential gun grabs under extreme close quarters. It's easy to get into these CAR techniques for both, and both are very effective at these particular instances.

So CAR showed some value and I was grateful to the person who showed the system to me. As well, this person isw not one to be messed with, he can make that g19 sing all day with extremely fast and effective fire on one or multiples. So fast and accurate in fact, that I was impressed immensely with the system as he demonstrated. He uses it exclusively, trains hard in it and most certainly is not one to be messed with a gun in his hand.

I won't use it as it would take a lot of retraining away from something that has worked for me for near 30 years, and I don't have the time left to relearn now. Again, two of the techniques have immense value to me and will be used though.

"Shoot a steel match then where all the targets fall when they are neutralized."

I shot steel for 6 years all over New England, from NH to RI and Conn. No sights on a 45 gov model [ the preferred carry at the time was the 1911 ], and had no problem beating A class IPSCers all day on the racks of plates using race guns and sights. BTDT., Next-----

"That is a flat out false statement. I regularly see people improve gun handling and marksmanship through shooting competitively without any formal training. Local matches that cost $10.00 to shoot are essentially structured practice sessions that force the shooter to do things they might not choose to do on their own."

I think you misinterpreted my response. I agreed with the above when I stated " If one doesn't have good gunhandling skills, one should shoot more, it doesn't have to come from the playing field.." I didn't say comps didn't or couldn't, just that those venues are NOT the only way to get there.

"You should also be able to demonstrate that pointshooting is a superior technique by using it in competition. The targets don't move, they don't shoot back....heck you can even go look at where all the targets are like most people do if you want. If you're shooting a single stack 1911, we'll only judge you against others shooting single stack 1911s. Put up or shut up."

BTDT, first time at an IPSC match using the same 45 with no sights, mid B class shooter. I would have done NO better with sights, and probaboly worse.

Expecting to beat a grandmaster with pointshooting is far fetched. Unless you are another grandmaster, you won't even beat them with your sights.

Would you then exclaim that the sighted fire masters and A class shooters using sights were then not superior? I hope not, as that thought process would be false, as we all pretty much know.

Robin Brown

 

[1 old 0311]

Hi Brownie,

Well YES and NO. The pistols in question were the .45 and the .380. A 8 inch hit with a .45 is probably safe, but not a 8 inch hit with a .380. With the smaller calibers shot placement, and follow up, are FAR more important than speed. Because of this I practice 2-3 times more with the smaller caliber pistols.
There is also the issue of how the weapon is carried, and the threat level. Military, and LEO's, use open carry, and the odds are that they will need to present, and fire with little, or no, notice. As a CCW, unless one frequents biker bars, or crack houses, most people will never have to draw on little, or no, notice. I have carried as a civilian since 1970, and came close twice. Both times I noticed what was going down, had time to respond, and got things difused before it got to that point.
I think both meathods have their place, and do deserve time spent with each. In my case I do spend more time with sighted than point.

Kevin

 

[Matthew Temkin]

A couple guys with airsoft pistols are going to learn vastly less about anything than those same two guys doing FOF under a real trainer, if they can even do it without injuring one another on their own...


Matthew is giving you guys a bad name, along with those CAR videos
http://www.sabretactical.com/C_A_R_/Video_Clips/video_clips.html

LOL!!!!
Funny, but on other forums people are saying that Brownie is making me look bad.
Luckily I choose my friends according to whom I like as opposed to who will help me make more money.
Hey Zak, I guess things are getting a bit lonely on the X to bring you over here.
Are you sure that Yeager approves?

 

[Zak Smith]

LOL!!!!
Funny, but on other forums people are saying that Brownie is making me look bad.

Well, he is in that he's a rational and articulate advocate of point-shooting.

Luckily I choose my friends according to whom I like as opposed to who will help me make more money.

What are you talking about?

Hey Zak, I guess things are getting a bit lonely on the X to bring you over here.

Look at my number of posts and "joined date", dude.

Are you sure that Yeager approves?

I'm not giving you static because he told me to. I am giving you static because your writing is incoherent, your arguments full of logical fallacies, and your posts lack any coherent thesis.

In case anyone missed it in the other thread

Matthew has an axe to grind against competition shooters and by extension any modern technique because he once applied a habit he developed in some martial arts training on the street (not gun related), where it was wholly inappropriate and potentially dangerous. He has never shot a pistol match or any competition, by his own admission.

He has generalized from that one failure of training and mindset to conclude that:

* the "Modern Technique" and modern techniques developed in the last 20 years in IPSC are inferior to the state of the art of pistol shooting from 50 years ago.

* competition shooting is over-all a bad idea, has nothing to teach, and every competition shooter will develop habits that will get him killed "on the street"

* practicing shooting a pistol beyond 9 FEET is a waste of time, and Matthew does most of his pistol shooting within that distance. (Parenthetically, note that the Tueller drill starts at 7 yards.)

Furthermore, he continues to use the straw-man argument that competition shooters ALWAYS use "front sight press" target engagement, an error that has been explained to him over and over again.

(The source for my conclusions in this thread are from a discussion with him in a GetOffTheX thread last month.)

-z

 

[SinistralRifleman]

been waiting for a chance to use this one...

 

[Matthew Temkin]

Shoot a steel match then where all the targets fall when they are neutralized.



That is a flat out false statement. I regularly see people improve gun handling and marksmanship through shooting competitively without any formal training. Local matches that cost $10.00 to shoot are essentially structured practice sessions that force the shooter to do things they might not choose to do on their own.

At normal ranges where else can someone practice drawing, moving and shooting in dynamic environments? Most public range prohibit holster practice, and you certainly can't move and shoot on a public range.

My premise is that anyone who competes regularly will have better shooting skills, than someone who does not shoot regularly at all or only studies pointshooting.

You should also be able to demonstrate that pointshooting is a superior technique by using it in competition. The targets don't move, they don't shoot back....heck you can even go look at where all the targets are like most people do if you want. If you're shooting a single stack 1911, we'll only judge you against others shooting single stack 1911s. Put up or shut up.

Once again I will put up.

Date} July 21. 2006

Place.: Calverton Shooting Range Long Island, NY

Time: 0900--1700 Hrs.

Cost: We will all chip in for the nominal fee to rent a private range area.

I am hosting a little informal get together and all are invited.

Airsoft, Sims and redsuits all welcome.

You want to learn, or you want to type?

Anyone interested can contact me via a PM

 

[Zak Smith]

Per Russell's prior challenge, post top 50% results from ANY major USPSA match. Surely if PS is worth anything, you can beat merely half the people.

 

[Matthew Temkin]

Per Russell's prior challenge, post top 50% results from ANY major USPSA match. Surely if PS is worth anything, you can beat merely half the people.

Let us all hook up face to face and reason together.
Challenge accepted.

 

[SinistralRifleman]

Once again I will put up.

Date} July 21. 2006

Place.: Calverton Shooting Range Long Island, NY

Time: 0900--1700 Hrs.

Cost: We will all chip in for the nominal fee to rent a private range area.

I am hosting a little informal get together and all are invited.

Airsoft, Sims and redsuits all welcome.

You want to learn, or you want to type?

Anyone interested can contact me via a PM

Please explain how this would be an objective test of technique?

 

[Zak Smith]

Per Russell's prior challenge, post top 50% results from ANY major USPSA match. Surely if PS is worth anything, you can beat merely half the people.

Let us all hook up face to face and reason together.
Challenge accepted.

Based on what Russell asked for and your response here, it's clear you lack reading comprehension skills.

 

[Matthew Temkin]

Please explain how this would be an objective test of technique?

You show up.
You set up exactly what tests you wish to see, and we will do it.
Bring a camcorder.
Bring a timer.
Bring whatever you wish and we will give you an honest demonstration of what the FAS system is.
Sorry, but with a wife, two kids, three jobs and extensive hobbies this is as far as I am willing to go to prove a point.
I can arrange lodging at a nearby motel for $100.00 per night.
Fair enough?

 

[SinistralRifleman]

The American Handgunner World shoot off is happenning again this year....there is no gaming at this match. It is a purely objective test of shooting skill

July 13th-16th at the San Juan Range in Montrose, CO.

http://www.sanjuanrange.com/ahwsc.htm

 

[Matthew Temkin]

Based on what Russell asked for and your response here, it's clear you lack reading comprehension skills.

Writers have a saying that they pass on to students...

SHOW!!!!
DON'T TELL!!!
You want a demo, you got it.
The only catch ( since you are the one so quick to issue challenges) is that you must come to me.
In return you get to pick the tests.
Timer?
You got it
FOF with Sims/Airsoft?
You got it.
OK?

 

[Matthew Temkin]

The American Handgunner World shoot off is happenning again this year....there is no gaming at this match. It is a purely objective test of shooting skill

July 13th-16th at the San Juan Range in Montrose, CO.

http://www.sanjuanrange.com/ahwsc.htm

Negative.
The challenged party get to choose the time and place.
Of course, if you/they are willing to pay my expenses then I will be happy to provide a demonstration in God's country.
One catch....
7677 gets a free ride along as well.
Contact me for info on where to send the plane tickets.

 

[Zak Smith]

I think Russell just posted where the world's best handgunners will be. Where will you be?

Since Russell and I both have jobs, just like you, it is unlikely we could make it to NY for the same reason you can't make it out to CO/AZ.

That's in part why Russell's original challenge was to just post top 50% results from any major USPSA match. Those are all over the place, and are reasonably objective given a sufficient number of competitors.

 

[SinistralRifleman]

The problem is I have never proclaimed my shooting prowess...you might very well do better than me. Without a large sample of comparison, gauging the effectiveness of your pointshooting techniques against one or two people would be fallacious as the sample size is too small. It could be equally unfair for you if I got Angus Hobdell, Rob Leatham, or Matt Burkett to come (though it is likely out of my budget to do so).

 

[SinistralRifleman]

Negative.
The challenged party get to choose the time and place.
Of course, if you/they are willing to pay my expenses then I will be happy to provide a demonstration in God's country.
One catch....
7677 gets a free ride along as well.
Contact me for info on where to send the plane tickets.

edit:

ran it by my boss, we can't pay for all your expenses....but if you get yourself there we will handle your entry fee as we are a match sponsor.

 

[Biker]

Lotta pissin' goin' on here.
Biker