USSC 'OK's Random Roadblocks

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And - whatever happened to the OATH sworn by so many?? To uphold ... the ''Consitution of the United States of America''.

Disregard (and flagrant) of the Constitution is surely ''law breaking'', par excellance .... it should be an idictable offence... for ALL.
 
I just heard another "sucking sound"...must have been some more rights - vanishing. Argghh!

Having worked in a main OR, I'm thinking about the on-call Heart Team, and other emergency STs, NSs ...Time is critical. Bad enough I had to answer as well. I had to hit the flashers at any time of night and be there "now". Rule was we drove safe, but fast with flashers, if a cop pursues, let hospital security explain...one had to be in scrubs to enter OR, and we were told to keep running and get in there "now".

So whom does the family sue? Sue them all? What if it was their family member? Oh sorry I was being sane and rational ...please don't tell the "thought police". :rolleyes:
 
"volunteer assistance"

Has anyone here read that SF novel, "Tiktok" (I forget the author's name) in which the protagonist, and narrating first-person character, is a robot, designed to be nice to humans, but warped by his experiences into being a right awkward m-effer? I think there's something in that book about getting "voluntary" statements, to wit, (I'm paraphrasing, don't have the book before me)


"I learned from the IRS agents how to get a voluntary statement. What you do, is hold the person's head underwater until he's about to stop breathing, then let him up and ask him if he wishes to make a voluntary statement".

My own opinion: If I were a secret policeman, I'd rather tow him behind a boat by a rope tied to one of his ankles; at least we'd get to have fun outdoors in the sunlight and fresh air.
 
Well, that's funny because the same SCOTUS denied police authorities the right to create roadblocks for ferreting out drunk drivers
Somebody ought to tell the folks in charge here. Every "drinking" weekend/holiday (New Year, Mardi Gras, Super Bowl, Sugar Bowl, Halloween, etc.) the state police and N.O.P.D. set up DWI roadblocks.

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Let's see, "a few minutes". Call it three. There's thirty cars in line ahead of me. That's an hour and a half wait. Hell with that!

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The last twenty-five or so years the Constitution has been slowly made more and more meaningless in the governments' eyes. I've got an eighteen year old son going in to the Air Force in August and a one year old grandson ('cause my son was temporarily stupid). I'm afraid of the world we're going to leave them.
 
Yet one more reason I have no desire to have children. . .

How do you explain to mom/dad/in-laws that "i do not look forward to another revolution and do not want my children to be put through that either"?

Oh well, we just need to elect officials that actually uphold the Const. Right? RIGHT? Easier said than done.
 
"Ye who do not know history..."

Back in the 1980s, SCOTUS held that roadblocks are legal so long as all vehicles are stopped. Random stops of profiled vehicles are not legal.

I think--but am not sure--that the initiating case arose from the actions of a Palm Beach County, Florida, deputy. He would stop "profile" types of vehicles and search for drugs. He had an 87% success rate. But, the deal was taken all the way up, and it was the profiling which was held to be "random" enforcement.

The next major roadblock case was on I-30 in Arkansas; all vehicles were stopped and checked for drugs. Lots of bitching, but no unconstitutionality.

Art
 
Everybody hold on a second. Illinois v. Lidster does not really fly in the face of existing precedent or logic. This is the same court that decided a couple of years ago that arbitrary roadblocks for general crime detection principles were no good. This case presents an additional nuance. If there is a particularized reason why a particular checkpoint in a particular location should be done at a particular day in time, the court has decided to allow a 10-15 second stop for officers to inquire if the motorist has any information about something. I agree that it goes further than prior Supreme Court precedent as to the facts, but not by much, and it certainly fits within the logic of the cases that overturned roadblocks. In this case, the police were investigating the hit and run death of a 70 year old bicyclist. About one week later, at about the same time of night and about the same place, the police prepared flyers saying “ALERT. . . FATAL HIT & RUN ACCIDENT†and requested assistance in identifying the vehicle and driver in the accident. The defendant in the case was in a minivan, and when he was coming to a stop, swerved and just about hit an officer. The officer smelled alcohol on his breath. At that point he was diverted to another area and given field sobriety maneuvers, which resulted in his arrest. We are not talking about a dragnet here for the purpose of detecting criminality on the part of the detainees. IMHO, there is no way that this activity under the facts of the case could be considered a pretext to jack people up and determine if they were committing a crime.

The court also noted that a blanket rule is not needed to prevent an unreasonable proliferation of police checkpoints, because practical considerations such as limited police resources and community hostility to related traffic tie ups, were likely to inhibit any such proliferation. Furthermore, the 4th amendment’s reasonableness standard provides an additional “important legal limitation†on police use of this kind of information seeking checkpoint.

Three justices concurred in part and dissented in part. They concurred that there is an important distinction between seizing a person to determine whether he committed a crime and seizing a person to ask whether he has any information about an unknown person who committed a crime a week earlier, and they joined the court’s opinion in agreeing that the prior cases dealing with roadblocks compelled a different result. Thus, this portion of the majority opinion is unanimous. However, the three justices dissented from the finding of reasonableness, thinking that the determination was too close to call under the circumstances, and thought that the case should have been remanded for a determination by the Illinois courts on that point.

YMMV

It may be true, as the headline suggested that the court approved random roadblocks, but it certainly is limited. That’s the problem when you get your Supreme Court news from a newspaper.

I realize that this distinction may not make a difference to some people, but it may make a difference to others. Just pointing out something for people to consider. . . .
 
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Did not the Supreme Court,

or some fairly senior Federal court, say, sometime in the '20s, that policemen had no right to stop everyone driving along a road and question them, just because one of them might be transporting alcohol. (We had Prohibition then, it was unlawful to transport alcohol).
 
"There is a valid and important distinction" between seizing a person to determine whether he or she has committed a crime and seizing a person to ask whether that person "has any information about an unknown person who committed a crime a week earlier," wrote Justice John Paul Stevens, joined by Justices David H. Souter (search) and Ruth Bader Ginsburg (search).

Correct me if I'm wrong but:

1. Isn't "seizing" a person the same as ARRESTING a person?
2. Isn't there a section in the BOR about search and SEIZURE?

The Executive Branch isn't upholding & protecting the Constitution. The Legislative Branch isn't upholding & protecting the Constitution. Now the Judicial Branch isn't upholding & protecting the Constitution. Why should anyone else? :scrutiny:
 
1. Isn't "seizing" a person the same as ARRESTING a person?

No. An arrest is a form of seizure but a seizure is not necessarily an arrest.

2. Isn't there a section in the BOR about search and SEIZURE?

Yes.
 
So if roadblocks are okay when used to pass on information about unsolved crimes...

Can I set up a roadblock to pass out information about political candidates? I think this is more important than solving crimes, given the disinterest of most citizens toward the political process has a much larger effect than their disinterest toward solving crimes.
 
So, based on this discussion, telemarketers may not bother us (invasion), political ads may NOT run during the closing days of campaigns (to protect the sheeple?), but LE can stop any group of people involuntarily, with no probable cause, to solicit information?
 
From what I can tell, the police are limited to random roadblocks as long as they are "tied to a specific case".

Hmmm, at any given moment most police departments have several, if not several hundred, "specific cases" they can arbitrarily choose to use as justification for their roadblocks. All it takes is a phone call to the right judge and - BAM! - you are legal as I see it defined in the news release.

I can just see it now - "Sir, we had a roll of toilet paper stolen at the 7-11 up the road. Could you step out of the car please, I need to see if you have wiped your butt recently."

:barf:

Brad
 
The Supreme Court does not render advisory opinions on theoretical matters. It only deals with actual cases and controversies. (This is a good thing, actually.) After a case is decided on a particular set of facts, it is up to the citizenry, including lower court judges, police, news reporters and Internet forum participants, to debate the applicability of the decision to other factual circumstances. Nothing is certain, and the Supreme Court also is free to overrule its own decision at any time in the future. Given the court’s strong support for its prior roadblock decision, it is my personal belief, and certainly not binding on anyone, that it would be a mistake for police to assume that they can take facts that pertain to a homicide investigation and a tailored, limited roadblock, and use it as an excuse for mass roadblocks to investigate petty crimes such as shoplifting from the local convenience store, or that they can set up “cold case†roadblocks. However, we shall have to wait until some police department/officer doesn’t agree with my personal opinion and pushes the envelope, and a person gets popped for something and fights it all the way up.
 
it would be a mistake for police to assume that they can take facts that pertain to a homicide investigation and a tailored, limited roadblock, and use it as an excuse for mass roadblocks to investigate petty crimes such as shoplifting from the local convenience store, or that they can set up “cold case†roadblocks.

Yeah, it's a mistake because the Supremes will be out there in their robes, randomly inspecting the roadblocks.:rolleyes:

While some poor shmuck tries to fight it and get his case to SCOTUS, the rest of us are waiting, waiting, waiting, 3 minutes per car, your paperz pleez...
 
Oleg,

Your answer many be found here.

I cannot imagine a more indefensible postion if the citizenry finally up too fed up, ot grew a pair.

& ya know, the judges rule on this nonsense, but if the cops weren't out there actually doing it ......

The judges are violating the constitution, while the cops are violating you.
 
The next major roadblock case was on I-30 in Arkansas; all vehicles were stopped and checked for drugs. Lots of bitching, but no unconstitutionality.

Oh yeah?

Just because the Nazgul 9 don't recognize it as unconstitutional doesn't mean it ISN'T unconstitutional.

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

I don't believe I see any exception for "If we violate everyone we see, in the compelling interest of the state, that makes it OK".

:fire: :fire: :fire:
 
against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated
Geek ... I fear this word ''unreasonable'' may well be called into play with more ''elasticity'' ..... viz ..... who defines it? If the SCOTUS defines it then almost anything goes .. potentially!:(

Bit like who decides what is in fact ''reasonable suspicion'' .... re traffic stops etc.

As ever .. how long is a piece of cord ..... not to mention too .... Who administrates the administrators? Who polices the police? etc ............
 
Who watches the watchmen?

We do.

Is anyone in their right mind going to defend a "stop everyone and search for drugs roadblock" as being reasonable?

If you do, you need a sanity/reality check, and a quick refresher on Liberty 101.

Nope. Reasonable is defined as " probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation". Reasonable means that there is a specific reason to assert that a crime has been committed, and the subject of the warrant committed it.

Anything else is the 4A version of 2A's "People = Militia = National Guard revisionism", and therefore bull????.
 
Geek ... in principle you are right .... I am however concerned regarding this sorta deal ....... viz ...

Road block ...... first nine vehicles full of sheeple ... they aquiesce (''it's for our own good Honey ... and National Security'') .... they put up with it, plus (''wasn't too bad really was it'') ...... along comes #10 in line .. a constitutionally minded and politely beligerant person (one of some of us perhaps! :p ) .... who decided this is not for him .... tells them to ''do the other thing'' (politely) and drives on his way ..... only to be soon pulled over.

He is cited for ... something ... and can only really seek redress retrospectively. He may or may not succeed ...... but the bottom line is ... the 9 sheeple gone thru are not aware of it - and if they were they'd maybe say ''Guess he was a criminal honey'' <shrug>.

So ... what this boils down to is ..... how does one person (at a time) really have enough teeth to stop what he knows is constitutionally wrong?? Does he go for broke and start a shooting war?

And if after he wants to legally ''take it all the way'' .... can he manage from a fiscal POV.... to ''fight the good fight''??

The sheeple have gone ... and another bunch are in the queue waiting .... they will all be just fine ..... so no mass representation about ''stripped rights'' .... just the delay until another solo complainer comes along.

Point is ..... because no mass bad feeling ..... there is no mass action .... and so it's another potential example of chip-chip-chip ........ each road block ''success'' just gradually reinforces the ability to continue ..... until it becomes accepted as the norm . when of course initially it was quite the opposite.

Can you see where I'm at here? The old problem .. one man on his own (at a time) has a problem influencing things much at all. He is up against it!
 
P95: I understand where you're coming from, and I'm sensitive to the pragmatic issues.

I'm certainly not saying a "politely belligerent person" (I love that phrase, btw) has to go _all the way_, it's entirely possible that self corrective mechanisms will start to kick in once people start going _some of the way_.

You don't even have to go as far as starting a chant of "jack booted thug, jack booted thug" the next time you see any jack booted thuggery in progress. (Although be my guest, if you deem it necessary)

What people will and won't put up with is often a function of socialization, and support, so we need to start supporting "politely belligerent" interactions.

The more the people doing the incursions hear people saying "this is nonsense", it'll eventually start sticking. Some of them might even stop to think that perhaps what they're doing isn't quite so smugly self justified.

The more joe and jane normal see others being "politely belligerent", the more likely they are to join up, and speak their minds.

9 sheeple might submit "for their own good", but at least 5 of them are going to feel violated about it afterwards, and then they'll be a step closer to not being so nice about it next time.

The other choice is either roll over completely, or wait till its too late.


I guess this all boils down to a long winded way of saying doing _something_ is better than doing _nothing_, and that we, as Americans, have accepted far too much incursion into 4A right along with the other 9.
 
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