Utah/Texas reciprocity threatened?

[danprkr]

Texans receiving gun permits through Utah program

That link is to a story on Texans getting Utah CHLs and using them to carry in Texas. You can go view the video there, or read the text below. The reason of course that Texans do this is because Texas' system is 4- 6 month paper blizzard to wade through. And, costs bunches of bucks to boot compared to other states. The reciprocity we have with Utah makes their states permit very attractive. I'd not like this to go away so please make sure and contact your state reps if you're in Texas to defeat this bill.

I did note that the writer pointed out the money Texas was losing as a result of this. Which I'm sure has NO influence on the thought process at all.

Bellow is the text:

DENTON - In Texas, the law requires people to shoot a handgun before they get a license. But, WFAA has found in the past 18 months, nearly 6,000 Texans have gotten a gun license without ever pulling a trigger. Now, a lawmaker is calling for change on the license to carry.

Concealed-carry permits from Utah are popular in Texas, and it's not hard to see why. Utah requires less than half the class time, has no written test, requires no live shooting and you don't even have to leave Texas to get one. But, that may be changing.

"Shooting to stop is a self-defense act," said Brad Brasuell, a certified Utah instructor, while talking with a group seeking to get a permit in Denton. "Shooting to kill by your virtue and intention makes you a murderer."

Brasuell said he knows why Texans are turning to Utah classes.

"[Texas] makes it like a Law 10 class when the general civilian doesn't have the attention span for it," he said.

Now, Rep. Lon Burnam, a Fort Worth Democrat, is weighing in on the permits.

"It's clearly a loophole that was not intended," Burnam said.

The Texas representative said it's an issue the legislature needs to deal with next session.

"This is an outrageous loophole that people are taking advantage of and it needs to be closed," he said.

Since there is no live firing, critics say the Utah program is less safe than the Texas program, though there's no proof of that. There is proof, however, that Texas is losing about $1.5 million a year in concealed-carry fees to Utah.

 

[danez71]

According to this site http://www.txdps.state.tx.us/administration/crime_records/chl/chlfaqs.htm
The Department will make every effort to issue your license within 60 days of receiving the completed application packet, or inform you that you did not meet the eligibility criteria. Once your application is complete, processing may take up to 180 days if your background check reveals potentially disqualifying events or information.



And if this site is right....

http://chl-texas.com/

10 hour required instruction (5 hours recertify)
Range qualification
Review of paperwork
Photographs
Completion of fingerprints
Notarization of documents
The fee for the first time class is $115.00 and includes the instruction, range fee, photographs, fingerprints, and notarization of affidavits. We have DPS packets available at class.


So 2 months and $115. Thats not really a '4-6 mo. paper blizzard' and 'bunches of bucks'.

Its actually pretty close to AZ requirements, time, and cost of which most people would love to be able to do.

With extra requirments for CCing not likely going away via the feds any time soon... a national CCW card would be a 1st step.

 

[CountGlockula]

I use my UT permit in TX; I got the permit while I was at UT.

I hope TX doesn't change a thing or it'll really suck.

 

[dogtown tom]

danez71 According to this site http://www.txdps.state.tx.us/adminis...hl/chlfaqs.htm
The Department will make every effort to issue your license within 60 days of receiving the completed application packet, or inform you that you did not meet the eligibility criteria. Once your application is complete, processing may take up to 180 days if your background check reveals potentially disqualifying events or information.



And if this site is right....

http://chl-texas.com/

10 hour required instruction (5 hours recertify)
Range qualification
Review of paperwork
Photographs
Completion of fingerprints
Notarization of documents
The fee for the first time class is $115.00 and includes the instruction, range fee, photographs, fingerprints, and notarization of affidavits. We have DPS packets available at class.


So 2 months and $115. Thats not really a '4-6 mo. paper blizzard' and 'bunches of bucks'.

The cost of the CHL class is up to the individual instructor and varies significantly. And you leave out the part where I send the State of Texas a fee of $140 for an initial CHL and $70 for each renewal.

The "4-6 month blizzard" did in fact occur this last year due to the enormous number of CHL applications and a state agency unprepared for Obamaphobia.

 

[danprkr]

When I got mine it costs (class + fees) nearly $300 initially, and was a full 6 months. I think for a new license it has gotten better, but it's still annoying. And, in my case it was times 2 because my wife and I did it at the same time.

None of which changes the fact that I'd still like to have reciprocity with as many states as possible so when I travel I can carry as much as possible.

 

[Rexster]

Revoking reciprocity is not as likely as simply requiring that Texas residents must use a Texas CHL to carry within Texas, or require that anyone who carries in Texas must use a permit issued by their state of residence. I seem to recall that other states have similar rules to the latter. The "loophole" is more of a revenue loss to Texas than anything, though arguing the level level of training and live-fire requirement are certainly tools to use in getting the law changed, without the legislators voting for it being branded as favoring a tax/fee.

 

[wishin]

Revoking reciprocity is not as likely as simply requiring that Texas residents must use a Texas CHL to carry within Texas, or require that anyone who carries in Texas must use a permit issued by their state of residence. I seem to recall that other states have similar rules to the latter.

That's the way Georgia approaches the issue; if you're a resident you must have a Georgia license to carry (called a weapons permit under our new gun law).

 

[danprkr]

I'm one of those "The 2nd amendment is my concealed carry permit" sort of guys. But, I comply simply because it's not worth the hassle not to.

Regardless, I feel that more freedom is better. That includes the freedom to carry under a Utah license or preferably not have license at all.

 

[Deltaboy1984]

All of us Texans here need to Flood Lon's Office with Phone Calls, Email and Letters telling him to let sleeping dogs lie lest he finds himself unemployed this next election.

 

[jfrey]

I agree with Rexter, if you live in Texas you need a Texas license. The reciprocity thing is so you can carry in another state in your state of residence issued license. It wasn't intended so you could get a seemingly easier issued license from another state. On top of that, the range portion of the Texas license requirement is always the fun part. I will take any excuse to shoot my pistols.
Lon needs to get a lot of letters and emails telling him to back off this crazy idea. I have never seen the time and paperwork to get a Texas license to be a big deal and I've had one since they first became legal.

 

[danez71]

None of which changes the fact that I'd still like to have reciprocity with as many states as possible so when I travel I can carry as much as possible.

I hear ya loud and clear on that. Nevada dumped AZ recently. I'm only about 1 hr from NV and CA.

CA aint gonna happen anytime soon and in order to get a NV you have to take the classes there and I think Vegas might have an extra requirement on top of that.... might have to take the class in their city.

 

[Quiet]

I hear ya loud and clear on that. Nevada dumped AZ recently. I'm only about 1 hr from NV and CA.

CA aint gonna happen anytime soon and in order to get a NV you have to take the classes there and I think Vegas might have an extra requirement on top of that.... might have to take the class in their city.

Umm...

Nevada became shall-issue CCW in 1995.
In 2001, Nevada started issuing non-resident CCW permits.
Not sure what happened before 2001, but from 2001-2007 Nevada did not honor any other state's CCW permit.
In Oct-2007, Nevada started honoring other state's CCW permits that met or exceeded Nevada's requirements for CCW issuance. NV DPS maintains a list of the states that Nevada honors.
Arizona has never been listed as a state Nevada honors.

Last year, Nevada removed Florida and Utah as states they honored.

Nevada requires approved CCW training for a NV CCW permit to be done in Nevada.
Clark County (Las Vegas) does not impose any additional requirements in obtaining a NV CCW permit.

Nevada requires that residents of Nevada must have a NV CCW permit in order to legally conceal carry in Nevada [NRS 202.3688].

 

[jbrown50]

How about this............

Texas abolishes the requirement for a permit to carry concealed for it's law abiding qualified/non-prohibited citizens, ala... Arizona and Alaska. Texas keeps the permit system available for persons who want or need one for reciprocity or other purposes.

I know, I know...........Texas isn't ready for this yet, but why play along with this foolishness of permits being a money maker for the state? With this advanced technological day and age it's quite easy for a cop to determine if someone is a prohibited person on the spot.


Let's hear it people. Give your reasons why this shouldn't happen.

 

[Art Eatman]

This is not about reciprocity. Texas would continue to recognize a Utah CHL held by a citizen of Utah.

The idea is that if you're a Texas resident, your CHL should be issued in Texas. The reciprocity is that you will be recognized as legal to carry in those other states which recognize the Texas CHL. Many states grant reciprocity ONLY if they perceive equality in the mandates of the program. The absence of range time for the Utah CHL seems to be the point of contention.

The lengthy period for issuance of licenses was due to a major overload at DPS. Far, far more applications came in than there was capability for the numbers of clerical staff. One of those, "Hey! Business is great! We can't fill orders fast enough!" deals. It seems to have been resolved; they've added clerical staff via additional budget.

 

[TexasRifleman]

So 2 months and $115. Thats not really a '4-6 mo. paper blizzard' and 'bunches of bucks'.

Its actually pretty close to AZ requirements, time, and cost of which most people would love to be able to do.

Well, from someone who actually lives here, that story left quite a bit out, no surprise.

First, the classes can range in price depending on where you live and where you take the course. There are also fees for the ID photo and fingerprints. Classes that include those usually price out in the $150 range.

Second, they left out the DPS fee for the permit, which is $140.

Third, DPS has violated those time limit laws more than once and nothing came of it.

I had a renewal due 2 years ago, started the renewal process 4 MONTHS ahead of schedule and my expiration date still came and went without a word from DPS other than "sorry we are busy".

Having a Florida CCW permit that was good in Texas whether or not I had a Texas permit was the only thing that kept me legal.

If the state wants that extra $1.5 million in revenue they should earn it by making the fees reasonable and the system easier, not by trying to redo a system that is working well.

This is no "loophole", it was done intentionally by the original framers of the Texas CHL program.

There was debate on whether or not to allow other states permits to be valid for Texas residents who did not have a Texas permit, and the decision was made to allow that to cover potential issues that might come up, exactly like what happened 2 years ago.

That's not a broken system, that's a system that works.

This is nothing but an anti gun politician looking for something to complain about. I love how every time a politician disagrees with something it becomes a "loophole".

As for this from the original story:

Since there is no live firing, critics say the Utah program is less safe than the Texas program, though there's no proof of that.

I'm not sure what good live firing does honestly, a legally blind person has passed the existing test. No I'm not making that up, several folks with extremely poor eyesight have passed the test in Texas. That was intentional as well, making the test easy enough for someone with a severe vision problem to still get a permit to protect themselves.

 

[danez71]

Umm...

Nevada became shall-issue CCW in 1995.
In 2001, Nevada started issuing non-resident CCW permits.
Not sure what happened before 2001, but from 2001-2007 Nevada did not honor any other state's CCW permit.
In Oct-2007, Nevada started honoring other state's CCW permits that met or exceeded Nevada's requirements for CCW issuance. NV DPS maintains a list of the states that Nevada honors.
Arizona has never been listed as a state Nevada honors.

Last year, Nevada removed Florida and Utah as states they honored.

Nevada requires approved CCW training for a NV CCW permit to be done in Nevada.
Clark County (Las Vegas) does not impose any additional requirements in obtaining a NV CCW permit.

Nevada requires that residents of Nevada must have a NV CCW permit in order to legally conceal carry in Nevada [NRS 202.3688].

OK, I was wrong about NV dumping AZ. I guess thats how I remembered it but you're right that NV dumped UT... which in turned meant it dumped AZ too.

For out of state residents though:
According to Las Vegas Metro PD website http://www.lvmpd.com/permits/firearms_concealed.html

Any person who meets the following criteria may apply to the Las Vegas Metropolitan Police Department for a permit:

•A Nevada resident of Clark County
•An out-of-state resident who received firearms training in Clark County.
•21 years of age or older.
•Not prohibited from possessing a firearm by State or Federal law.
•Successfully completes an approved firearms course in Clark County (paid for by applicant).

According to tthe state website http://www.leg.state.nv.us/NRS/NRS-202.html#NRS202Sec3653

NRS 202.3657 Application for permit; eligibility; denial or revocation of permit.

1. Any person who is a resident of this State may apply to the sheriff of the county in which he or she resides for a permit on a form prescribed by regulation of the Department. Any person who is not a resident of this State may apply to the sheriff of any county in this State for a permit on a form prescribed by regulation of the Department.


So while the state site says out of state resident can apply in any county, LVMP says an out of state resident has to apply in Clark County

To me, thats an additional requirement that LV / Clark County imposes on out of state residents than what the state requires. (although its not citing which law#)

If you can shed some proof to the contrary, please let me know.

 

[Frank Ettin]

...So while the state site says out of state resident can apply in any county, LVMP says an out of state resident has to apply in Clark County...

Here's the wrinkle: in Nevada, an out-of-state resident must apply in the county in which he took his approved class. As you quoted from the Clark Count site:

•A Nevada resident of Clark County
•An out-of-state resident who received firearms training in Clark County.
•21 years of age or older.
•Not prohibited from possessing a firearm by State or Federal law.
•Successfully completes an approved firearms course in Clark County (paid for by applicant).

I took my Nevada CCW class in Reno and therefore had to apply to the Washoe County Sheriff.

 

[utahblows]

I'm not too surprised Texas is dumping Utah. Nevada has already gone that way. Utah CFP is a joke. Depending on where you go, you don't even need to own a firearm or fire one for that matter. It's just 3 hours of talkin about certain laws and going over scenarios for use of deadly force.

 

[mljdeckard]

So, UTAHBLOWS, what is it YOU think people should be required to before they are ALLOWED to exercise their RIGHT to keep and bear arms?

Utah is hated by the antis more than any other state. What's YOUR beef?

 

[danez71]

Here's the wrinkle: in Nevada, an out-of-state resident must apply in the county in which he took his approved class. As you quoted from the Clark Count site:

•A Nevada resident of Clark County
•An out-of-state resident who received firearms training in Clark County.
•21 years of age or older.
•Not prohibited from possessing a firearm by State or Federal law.
•Successfully completes an approved firearms course in Clark County (paid for by applicant).

I took my Nevada CCW class in Reno and therefore had to apply to the Washoe County Sheriff.

Fiddle, please elaborate. Maybe Im not interpreting this right.
Are you saying that you have to apply in the same county that you received training HOWEVER it is good in all counties in NV?

Or are you saying basically that but you once you have it you also have to apply in each county you want to CC in or is that an extra just for Clark County or....???

Also, can you CC in a casino if its not posted at the enterance?

PM if you think its best.

Thanks
---dan

 

[Frank Ettin]

...Fiddle, please elaborate. Maybe Im not interpreting this right.
Are you saying that you have to apply in the same county that you received training HOWEVER it is good in all counties in NV?...

Sorry I was obscure. Yes, that's exactly right. If you're out-of-state, you apply in the county in which you receive your training, but the CCW is then good throughout the State.

...Also, can you CC in a casino if its not posted at the enterance?...

That's my understanding.

...Utah is hated by the antis more than any other state. What's YOUR beef?

Well, I have to admit that I was a little annoyed. When Nevada dropped Utah reciprocity (I have a Utah permit), I had to drag my sorry carcass last July to Reno to get my Nevada CCW. And then had to stand out on the range in the hot sun (about 100 degrees) for the longest time while some wack-job from California qualified with a whole bunch of guns. (The make, model and caliber of each gun one qualifies with, except revolvers, is listed on the Nevada CCW. Oh, and that wack-job from California was me.)

 

[Art Eatman]

Since the thread subject is no longer of interest...