Popularity of Utah gun permits puts hole in budget

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http://www.sltrib.com/ci_4085451

Popularity of Utah gun permits puts hole in budget
Agency calls trend a burden on taxpayers, safety controls
By Glen Warchol
The Salt Lake Tribune



In the 11 years since its passage, Utah's concealed-weapon law has become the closest thing to a national concealed-carry permit, with six of every 10 permits this year going to out-of-state residents.
A tidal wave of nonresident applicants since January has state Bureau of Criminal Identification officials overwhelmed and concerned that Utah taxpayers are subsidizing nonresidents' gun permits. Worse, they say the huge numbers of out-of-state applicants are robbing resources from other important public safety duties - particularly doing criminal background checks on school employees.
"Utah's is the de facto national concealed-carry permit," says Ed McConkie, chief of BCI, which administers the state's concealed-weapons licensing. Of more than 62,000 permits issued from 1995 to 2005, 19,000 have gone to nonresidents.
Applying for Utah's permit requires a gun-safety class, fingerprinting, a criminal background check and $59. An applicant does not have to be a Utah resident - or even have set foot in the state - to get a concealed-gun permit. Utah has licensed instructors in 42 other states and Canada to remotely train applicants for its permit.
Out-of-state applicants, for the most part, are not seeking to carry concealed weapons in Utah. Instead, they want to carry in the more than 30 states that recognize Utah's permit. Utah has the highest level of acceptance in the nation. Add that to the permit's five-year duration, low fee, ease of renewal and modest level of training, and it's no wonder gun rights activists call Utah's "the most valuable permit in the nation."
"With a Utah permit, a nonresident can carry in many other states because those states look at Utah's permit system and say, 'It's a good program. We will accept that,' " says Clark Aposhian, a gun rights lobbyist and chairman of the Utah Concealed Weapon Review Board.
Apparently, word of Utah's bargain concealed-gun permit has spread. The number of out-of-state permits has been increasing rapidly every year - but BCI has not seen anything like this year's onslaught.
The bureau projects the number of concealed weapon applicants will hit 16,138 by the end of 2006, breaking 2005's record of 10,767. But even more shocking to the bureau, fully 58 percent of 2006 applicants do not live in Utah.
Many nonresident applicants apply for Utah permits because their own state's regulations are more stringent or the fees are higher. Then, Utah's reciprocity allows them to carry a concealed handgun on their own turf, says McConkie. "It's better to have a Utah concealed-carry permit in Florida than a Florida permit."
Art Gordon, a gun dealer in St. Louis who has a Utah training licence, says half the people he trains for concealed-carry permits are applying to faraway Utah. Charging $80 each, Gordon has prepared about 200 applicants for Utah's permit. Though Utah only requires "familiarity" with guns - it's possible to get a Utah permit without firing a weapon - Gordon requires his students to prove handgun competence on a shooting range.
"Missouri doesn't have reciprocity with as many states as Utah; that's the primary reason its permit is so popular," Gordon says. "My students come from Missouri, Texas, Oklahoma and Ohio to get Utah permits."
Curtis Oda, R-Clearfield, one of the Legislature's leading gun-rights advocates, is not concerned by the growing number of Utah permits going to nonresidents who are trained out of state.
"As long as they are teaching the proper things, the more people who have concealed weapons, the better," Oda says. "Utah's permit is the most valuable in the country. We are the standard now and more and more states want to have reciprocity with us."
Steve Gunn, a Salt Lake lawyer who is on the board of the Gun Violence Prevention Center of Utah, says he is not surprised about the popularity of Utah's permit considering how easy it is to get one.
"It's a shame that we make these permits available so easily and that we don't have more stringent requirements to get them," Gunn says. "The ease with which one can obtain a permit is not in the best interest of the public."
Though BCI will collect more than $500,000 in fees this year, the program will cost $610,000 to administer, according to bureau figures. Yet, the Legislature only appropriates $88,000 to run the program. "That pays for about one employee," says McConkie.
"The money [from fees] disappears into that big blue ocean of the state budget," says the Department of Public Safety's Col. Claron Brenchley, who oversees the concealed-carry program. The department subsidizes the program through other parts of its budget.
At the same time, the Legislature requires BCI to process the applications within 60 days. This month, for the first time, the six BCI workers who handle the concealed-carry background checks and paperwork have fallen behind. "We are technically in violation of the statute," says Brenchley.
McConkie emphasizes the majority of the backlog of 2,600 applications are from nonresidents. "Out-of-state applicants are driving this dramatic increase in applications. It is skyrocketing."
To keep up, Brenchley says the bureau has been tapping resources in other BCI programs, including employees and computers that should be screening teachers and other workers in sensitive public jobs.
"This has become a public safety issue," Brenchley says of the lagging educator checks. "What is more important, a concealed-carry permit or checking the background of a teacher?"
Oda, Aposhian and others in the gun lobby say the solution is to funnel the state's share of the permit fees directly to BCI to cover the costs of the program. By their math, the state of Utah is making a profit on issuing the permits.
"There is no way BCI can continue to do this," Aposhian says. "They flat-out don't have the manpower to stay in compliance."
Aposhian, chairman of Utah Shooting Sports Council, the local National Rifle Association affiliate, says he would be willing to raise out-of-state permit fees - if the money went to BCI. "I don't want Utahns spending a dime to subsidize out-of-state permits."
But Oda maintains the solution is for the Legislature to mandate all concealed-weapon fees to flow directly to BCI.
"The numbers are there. They have plenty of money to administer the concealed-weapon regulation," he says. "Yet they are only allocated back $88,000, and have to rob Peter to pay Paul to run the program."
McConkie fears any solution that involves increasing the price of permits or limiting issue to nonresidents could trigger a political battle between national gun-rights and gun-control groups. "If Utah is seen as the last bastion of gun permits - it may become a national rallying point."
 
probably

better to get both.
get them now before they raise the fee, also I heard FL takes a long time to get back to you.
 
I was going to take the Utah class...then found out they (and every state I've checked) want a complete set of fingerprints. Cancelled the class.
I personal line in the sand is that I will not be treated like a criminal for "safety" reasons and have any Govt take that kind of personal identity property from me.

The instructor (over the phone) had this shrugged shoulders kind of response(said he was in the army so they already had his)....he completely missed the point.

and we wonder why compromise with Rights leads to a Compromised Bill of Rights......I still shake my head.....:banghead:

I know its just me.....keep thinkin the Bill of Rights are absolute......bad monkey bad
 
The orginal article has a graphic showing why Utah was so popular compairing cost, valid period, and renewal fees. IT basically showed that it was cheaper to get ($59 + background check fees), valid for longer (5 years), and very inexpensive to renew ($10, no new fingerprints or anything) compared to most other states.
 
I was going to take the Utah class...then found out they (and every state I've checked) want a complete set of fingerprints. Cancelled the class.
I personal line in the sand is that I will not be treated like a criminal for "safety" reasons and have any Govt take that kind of personal identity property from me.

But you are perfectly willing to have to pay for a license to exercise your 2A rights?

I suggest you rethink. "They" already know who you are if you have a SS card, a DL, a car, a bank account, a job, etc. How does fingerprints change anything?

My guess is that very few if any people are disqualified by the fingerprints that would not have been disqualified anyway.
 
But you are perfectly willing to have to pay for a license to exercise your 2A rights?

Nope........ not "perfectly willing":rolleyes:

At first I got the permit because (at the time I was a non gun owner) I wanted to send a political message by increasing the permit numbers here. Then I started to carry some of the time....now its all of the time.

And now as a gunowner I see the double standard that most gun owners allow to exist: Rights permited by Govt are not rights....they are privileges.

Alaska and Vermont are the standard.


In a way....becoming a gun owners has cause me to "get serious" with my part as an active responsible citizen. Even to shed my republican past because they are all to willing to compromise on Gun Rights and push a license to exercise our 2A rights!!! (pretty sure every "common sense" gun regulation/compromise had GOP votes all over it)
 
How could this be putting a burden on the state when they're making $60 a pop? If anything it's bringing money into the state.
 
dmckean44 said:
How could this be putting a burden on the state when they're making $60 a pop? If anything it's bringing money into the state.

Because it costs more in overhead to process.

Though BCI will collect more than $500,000 in fees this year, the program will cost $610,000 to administer, according to bureau figures. Yet, the Legislature only appropriates $88,000 to run the program. "That pays for about one employee," says McConkie..
 
As a Utah resident, I am happy and proud to subsidize you out-of-staters. Bring your masses and we will arm you.....and protect your Second Amendment Rights. Can't think of a better way to spend our tax dollars.

Given that one cannot realistically exercise 2A rights without such a permit....how hard should it be to obtain them?
 
Do states like Oklahoma recognize the Utah CCW only for out-of-state people or in-state (Oklahoma) residents also? It would be an interesting way around the higher fees locally.
 
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OT, but silly irony:

"...Steve Gunn, a Salt Lake lawyer who is on the board of the Gun Violence Prevention Center of Utah...":p
 
xd9fan:

Why not get a New Hampshire non-resident permit -- $20, four years, NO FINGERPRINTS, no training requirement. Straightforward, two page application. According to packing.org, good in 19 states or so (a NH resident permit is valid in a couple more states).

Application here:

http://webster.state.nh.us/safety/nh...ts/dssp260.pdf

Stay safe.

According to that website, they require non-residents to have a CCW in thier home state before NH will issue a permit for NH.

Plus, if you have a Utah permit, then NH will honor it so you don't really need the NH permit.
 
"It's a shame that we make these permits available so easily and that we don't have more stringent requirements to get them," Gunn says. "The ease with which one can obtain a permit is not in the best interest of the public."
Though BCI will collect more than $500,000 in fees this year, the program will cost $610,000 to administer, according to bureau figures. Yet, the Legislature only appropriates $88,000 to run the program.

I predict the state of Utah will strike a compromise, keeping permit fees low for residents, and charging non-residents double or triple the fee.

I hope not. This is one more reason I should jump on the Utah permit before they change their laws and charge more money. The only thing stopping me is my home state has no CCW, and honors no CCW. Is it worth getting the Utah CCW if I'll never really use it?
 
You never travel out of state?

A couple weeks a year? Is it worth having the Utah permit if I'll vacation in Wisconsin (does not recognize the Utah permit), or if I'll drive to Florida for a week?

I'm very new to gun laws, so I am not very confident I know enough. I would hate to take a vacation to Texas, get stopped while driving through Oklahoma and have to spend a week in jail because I did not have the proper papers in hand. It scares the daylights out of me that one paper mistake could cost years in prision. I don't want to spend my life in jail with murderers and rapists because I filled out a Utah permit when I should have filled out a Florida permit or vice versa.

We need a national standard. I've looked at the Utah permit, and some states that recognize it only will honor it if you're a resident of their state. Florida for example will honor a Utah permit if you're a resident of Utah, but they will not honor it for residents of Illinois. Michigan does the same thing. My guess is this is how gun control groups will limit the power of the Utah permit, by reducing the number of states that honor it.
 
Plus much of that $59 fee goes to the FBI for the processing of the fingerprints.

I'm a Utah CCW instructor. Honestly, I really like BCI, and I think that as far as .gov agencies go, they are about as good a bunch as you will ever find. They are a pleasure to deal with, and the staff actually likes the idea of people carrying guns.

xd9fan, that is an attitude that you can take about the fingerprints if you so desire, and on an purely idealistic standpoint, I understand where you are coming from. Sadly, if you want to carry a gun to defend yourself here, you need to get printed. It is stupid, but sometimes idealism has to take a back seat to practicality. I've got students that are in serious fear of their lives who absolutely need to carry a gun. Actually having the hardware is the number one concern, and constititional ideals have to come second.

So, yeah, I guess I would have just shrugged too.
 
The problem is not that the program is not bringing in enough money to fund the program. The problem is that all the fees that come in go directly into the general fund. The legislature apportions moneys from the general fund to run programs and they only apportion $88,000 for the CCW program.
If the program were allowed fund itself from its income there would be no problem.
 
Is it worth having the Utah permit if I'll vacation in Wisconsin (does not recognize the Utah permit), or if I'll drive to Florida for a week?

It's hard for an Illinois resident to go wrong with a Florida license or a Utah license. I know people who have both.

A Florida license gives an Illinois resident FL plus AK, AL, AR, AZ, CO, DE, GA, ID, IN, KY, LA, MO, MS, MT, NC, ND, NM, OH, OK, PA, SD, TN, TX, UT, VA, VT and WY.

A Utah license gives an Illinois resident UT plus AK, AL, AR, AZ, CO, DE, GA, ID, IN, KY, LA, MN, MO, MS, MT, NC, ND, NM, OH, OK, SD, TN, TX, VA, VT, WA and WY.

http://www.handgunlaw.us/documents/USReciprocity.pdf
 
Everything you have that you THINK is a "right" is in fact a privilege.

Voting is a privilege, firearms ownership is a privilege, etc, etc.... even life itself is a privilege... because anybody more willing to fight to take it than you are willing to fight to keep it can take it away from you.


And now as a gunowner I see the double standard that most gun owners allow to exist: Rights permited by Govt are not rights....they are privileges.


Most states that don't honor non-resident permits are states that don't issue non-resident permits themselves. A national standard/ nationwide recognition would be nice, like driver's licenses, but until then it's part of your responsibility to know the law where you will be travelling. With sites like packing.org and handgunlaw.us it's not that hard.

My guess is this is how gun control groups will limit the power of the Utah permit, by reducing the number of states that honor it.
 
We need a national standard.

If it involves the feds or imposes greater restrictions on where I can carry, No Thanks!!

I'm very new to gun laws, so I am not very confident I know enough.

I often carry in neighboring states and have current printouts of their laws. That keeps me legal and armed. I don't like being defenseless.
 
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