Utah: No More Gun Permits for Foreigners

[Outlaws]

The Bill of Rights does not specify US citizens or the like. It is sad that we are throwing away what makes this country great to stop the evil outsiders from getting guns.

Freedom is dying in Utah.

"...the right of the people to keep and bear arms..." It does not say "people", it says "the people". But what is "the people"? IMO the Constitution says it.

We the people of the United States, in order to form a more perfect union, establish justice, insure domestic tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general welfare, and secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.

 

[whitebb]

I was discussing this on another board. Look at the declaration of Independance:

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness

All men are created equal, citizen or not.
+1 Outlaws

 

[Car Knocker]

In the historical context of the Declaration of Independence, all men were not created equal. Non-whites were certainly not equal to whites and women were certainly not equal to men. In any event, the fallacious concept citizens and non-citizens were equal did not survive past Article I of the Constitution.

 

[Correia]

Either way, because of this FREEDOM IS DYING IN UTAH! OH NOES!

Man, the more I think about that comment, the madder it makes me.

 

[Autolycus]

Well Correia if if makes you feel any better in some ways Utah allows more freedom then in Illinois.

Either way I do believe that all men are created equal and yes that includes people of all colors, creeds, religions, and it includes women.

I am sorry but if you feel that it is reasonable to restrict foreigners then you probably dont consider the right to keep and bear arms a human right in my opinion.

I do understand the frustration with the waiting of the permits as Utah and Florida have become the de facto National CCW permits. However that is all the more reason to push for national reciprocity.

 

[Correia]

See, Tecumsah, now that is a reasonable, well written post.

But a useless catch all sound byte like "Freedom is Dying in Utah..." is a trite, and useless, and frankly insulting, insinuation.

As for what I believe about CCW being a human right, how many hundred people have you taught for free lately?

Did I ever say that I thought it was reasonable to restrict foreigners? Nope. Never did. At last count, I've certified 27 non-US citizens.

Do I think it is irrational for you to say freedom is dying, when you come from one of the most corrupt states, and RKBA restricted states in the country, and insult what is probably one of the top 5 CCW states?

You betcha.

 

[Autolycus]

I dont mean anything personal. When I said "you dont see RKBA as a human right" I meant the rhetorical collective.

As for free training, you got me there.

No you didnt say it but I see a lot of people think it is ok to do so.

As for my home state, IL is more free in some regards than Utah. Certainly not in regards to guns but in regards to alcohol I think it is.

 

[tinygnat219]

Correia,

Sorry, as one of those out-of-staters getting a UT permit, I thought it was the best deal going, and there are trainers popping up in VA of all places to take advantage of the UT permit. Word is, that recognition of the permit is going to happen in NV.

My opinion is, take care of the locals in UT first, and then the out of staters!

 

[everallm]

@Nightcrawler

I wonder...if a resident alien really wanted to get a permit, if he couldn't perhaps contact his own country's criminal records system and present his own records to BCI. Or at least, provide BCI with a way to contact his country's criminal records system (phone numbers, fax numbers, good times to call, etc.). It doesn't say that foreigners will no longer be issued permits; it says that they wont' receive permits if a background check cannot be conducted.

One small correction, one FYI.

This is about NON resident aliens applying for permits not permanent resident aliens AKA Green Card.

The other is regading the type of personally identifiable information (PII) that would be needed for criminal background checks.

The US is not regarded as a safe data haven for PII by the European Union (can we say Checkpoint, TD Ameritrade, TJ MAXX etc) and this data is highly restricted in its transfer capacity. As such bundling this type of information to transmit to the US is illegal in many cases.

 

[Correia]

I'm all about out of staters getting the Utah permit, too. My last class had people from Colorado, Nevada, and Idaho. The class before that, I actually had a Virginia resident.

BCI is getting hammered right now, and it is because of out of staters, but our permit is about the best thing going right now, so it is to be expected. They changed the law last session so that BCI will have more staffing, so hopefully the wait will get longer.

And yes, our alchohol laws don't make a lick of sense. No disagreement there.

 

[Car Knocker]

They changed the law last session so that BCI will have more staffing, so hopefully the wait will get longer.

Shorter, Larry, shorter!

 

[Autolycus]

It all depends on what kind of freedom were talking about. In regards to guns I think UT is a leader while MA is a leader when it comes to marriage rights and civil unions. Or Oregon when it comes to assisted suicide.

Either way I would argue that this is a reason Utah residents should lobby their Senators and Represenatives to support National reciprocity. If we had it then there would not be any need for all those out of staters to get a permit. The burden would probably substantially decrease and the only people who might bother are from non-issue states or states that do not issue permits.

 

[Roccobro]

Either way I would argue that this is a reason Non-Utah residents should lobby their Senators and Represenatives to support National reciprocity.

There fixed it for ya.

Why should UT have to carry ALL the burdens of the worlds CCW woes? Alcohol rarely saves anybodys life in a crisis so I don't know why it matters in this argument of CCW and guns... Oh well.


Correia- My two brothers, the oldest bro's wife, and that wifes' parent (in their 60's) all thank you for your class. You have helped all of them within the last 30 days get their CCW papers in. Details why UT was the ONLY place any of them ever even applied for CCW (in all their lives) will be saved for another rainy day.

Justin

 

[Noxx]

Question on the Utah CCW card, since I had never considered getting another states permit before, hadn't occured to me.

From the linked site..

°has not been convicted of a felony;

°has not been convicted of any crime of violence;

°has not been convicted of any offense involving the use of alcohol;

°has not been convicted of any offenses involving the unlawful use of narcotics or other controlled substances;

°has not been convicted of any offenses involving moral turpitude;

°has not been convicted of any offense involving domestic violence;

°has not been adjudicated by a court of a state or of the United States as mentally incompetent, unless the adjudication has been withdrawn or reversed


"any offense involving the use of alcohol", would that be construed to deny my app on an old misdmeanor DUI? Just curious.

 

[Grump]

Word is, that recognition of the permit is going to happen in NV.

I'd have to check, but probably not. Legislature is out of session (we're safe for a full year!!!), and last time, the proposal died in committee despite almost universally favorable comment being received by all members.

The bugaboo is that NV isn't interested in reciprocity with any state whose standards are NOT "at least as" rigorous at the Silver State's requirements. Utah has no live-fire qualification. NV does. They also fret about how to monitor the quality of the classroom component.

For me, I'd be satisfied by relying on a 50-question test that's NV-specific, and just requiring every non-NV CCW to "register" the other state's permit in NV by taking the test AND shooting the NV course at the same time, with instructor's certification that it's not faked. No need to worry about "converting" scores from other targets to B-27 equivalents, or whatever, and wondering if the time limits are consistent.

 

[Jorg Nysgerrig]

Word is, that recognition of the permit is going to happen in NV.

I'd have to check, but probably not.
...
For me, I'd be satisfied by relying on a 50-question test that's NV-specific, and just requiring every non-NV CCW to "register" the other state's permit in NV by taking the test AND shooting the NV course at the same time, with instructor's certification that it's not faked.

Grump, it seems Nevada has gone ahead and done it without your blessing or your complicated registration scheme.
http://www.nvrepository.state.nv.us/Special/CCW_CHANGE.shtml

 

[Grump]

Well, shut my mouth! With all the Dumbocrats elected last go-round, I had given up all hope of any reciprocity, and hadn't even bothered to follow the session on that topic.

 

[30 cal slob]

UT should charge more for non-residents.

$$$

(i got mine).

 

[Correia]

"any offense involving the use of alcohol", would that be construed to deny my app on an old misdmeanor DUI? Just curious.

They look at severity of the offense, and time elapsed since it occured. Usually on DUI, they make you wait 7 years.

Roccobro, it was my pleasure.

 

[Noxx]

They look at severity of the offense, and time elapsed since it occured. Usually on DUI, they make you wait 7 years.

D'oh.

One year to go.

 

[JerryM]

I agree with Utah.
Jerry

 

[elkhuntingfool]

I agree with Utah.
Jerry

Same here - and I live here