VA CCW list published by Roanoke Times 3/11

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Roanoke Times: legislators consider sealing permit records

http://www.roanoke.com/news/roanoke/wb/108899

The Roanoke Times
March 16, 2007

Officials to consider closing records on gun permits

The panel is expected to form a work group to examine whether the General Assembly should restrict public access to concealed handgun information.

By Laurence Hammack

A state senator who heads an open records council is calling for a study of whether the identities of Virginians who have permits to carry concealed handguns should remain public.

Sen. Edd Houck, a Spotsylvania County Democrat who chairs the state's Freedom of Information Council, made the request in the wake of controversy generated by The Roanoke Times.

Earlier this week, the newspaper published and then pulled from its Web site a database containing the names and addresses of about 135,000 state residents who have obtained court permission to carry concealed handguns.

Although the information is public record, hundreds of readers and permit holders have complained that making the data so easily accessible on the Internet invaded their privacy and could make them targets of crime.

House Majority Leader Morgan Griffith, R-Salem, who is the vice chairman of the FOI council, said other people -- himself included -- who don't carry concealed handguns could also be put at risk.

"Maybe I need to be on that list," Griffith said. "I'm such a strong gun advocate that I thought I was safe because people just assumed that I had one. Now they know that I don't."

The council is expected to form a work group when it meets Monday in Richmond. After researching the issue and holding public hearings, the group will make recommendations that could lead next year's General Assembly to restrict or eliminate access to concealed handgun information.

"We're going to try to make sure that we protect folks," Griffith said.

One proposal is that Virginia follow the lead of Vermont, the only state that does not require its residents to obtain a permit to carry a concealed handgun. "There are people advocating that," Griffith said, adding that he was not sure how far that idea might go.

The issue hit a flash point Sunday, when the database was posted on roanoke.com to supplement an opinion piece about open government by editorial writer Christian Trejbal.

As angry reaction flooded the newspaper's phone lines and Web site, president and publisher Debbie Meade announced Monday that the database was being taken down out of concerns that Virginia State Police, who released the information at the paper's request, might have included the names of crime victims in violation of state law.

The next day, state police said that was not the case. In fact, the state Freedom of Information Advisory Council issued an opinion in 2001 that found police are within their legal rights to release such data.

But the information remains off line as the debate continues.

Houck said he decided to ask for the study after citizens called his office to complain about the newspaper. While it was not a great number of calls, "the intensity was pretty strong," he said.

"This is one of those classic issues where you've got personal privacy rights bumping up against the public's right to know."
 
One proposal is that Virginia follow the lead of Vermont, the only state that does not require its residents to obtain a permit to carry a concealed handgun. "There are people advocating that," Griffith said, adding that he was not sure how far that idea might go.

Now wouldn't it be ironic, if you guys got Vermont style carry out of all of this. :)
 
Well, as much as I like the law in VT, the article got something wrong (no surprise): it's not the only such state that doesn't require a permit. Alaska is the same, you can carry there without a permit. It hasn't been that way there nearly as long as VT but that is the way it is now.

But I hope Virginians do get their full rights restored by eliminating the need for a permit, that would be wonderful...
 
Hey packingdressagerider,

You're quite welcome. Please keep your eye on this thread. I'll have more lists coming out as I'm able. I'll try to complete a big realtor list this weekend. Realtors are HUGE money for the RT's advertising income.

You gotta explain that screen name, too :)
 
tinygnat,

If you are interested in pursuing more FOIA requests I have a good one for you. The State Police are saying they do not have the authority to withhold this information based on an opinion they received from their FOIA Advisory Board. Sounds like the FOIA Advisory Board wouldn’t mind if you acquired and released all of their personal information. Just a thought.
 
A response from one of the realtors

I suggested, when he responded to me, that he forward all the grief he was getting to his bosses. Here's the reply:

Thanks for your recommendation; how do you think I felt being, albeit indirectly, caught in the crosshairs of gun rights activists when I am a gun rights activist myself! This is the first time my inbox has ever been flooded as I am always on the sending side of those. Your collective efforts do not go unnoticed :)

I suspect that we're having an impact. I also suspect that he's one of us, who responded to the Times's original editorial :D
 
House Majority Leader Morgan Griffith, R-Salem, who is the vice chairman of the FOI council, said other people -- himself included -- who don't carry concealed handguns could also be put at risk.

"Maybe I need to be on that list," Griffith said. "I'm such a strong gun advocate that I thought I was safe because people just assumed that I had one. Now they know that I don't."
Maybe this made it all worthwhile. If it saves just one life...
 
This is wonderful! The media wanted to "shame" y'all as sneaking around with "hidden guns" and drag you into the sunshine of enlightened socialism.

And now what they have done is to create an enormous uproar which could lead to Vermont carry for Virginia!!!

I wonder what's going on in the break room at the Washington Post about right now?:evil: :D
 
That would be the ultimate slap in Christian Trejbal's face if this does cause legislation for Vermont type carry in Virginia. :D I like it!
 
No permits!???!?!?!?!!!

DC is a hair's width away from allowing guns in the home, and now we've got even half-serious consideration of doing away with permits? We need to push for that first, and protect information second!

This area of the country just got a LOT more interesting in the last couple weeks......
 
House Majority Leader Morgan Griffith, R-Salem, who is the vice chairman of the FOI council, said other people -- himself included -- who don't carry concealed handguns could also be put at risk.

"Maybe I need to be on that list," Griffith said. "I'm such a strong gun advocate that I thought I was safe because people just assumed that I had one. Now they know that I don't."

Wow. He admits to not having a gun? Well good for him to realize he needs one!

"We're going to try to make sure that we protect folks," Griffith said.

This is one statement to remember when feet need to be held to the fire.

One proposal is that Virginia follow the lead of Vermont, the only state that does not require its residents to obtain a permit to carry a concealed handgun. "There are people advocating that," Griffith said, adding that he was not sure how far that idea might go.

Another chance!

As angry reaction flooded the newspaper's phone lines and Web site, president and publisher Debbie Meade announced Monday that the database was being taken down out of concerns that Virginia State Police, who released the information at the paper's request, might have included the names of crime victims in violation of state law.The next day, state police said that was not the case. In fact, the state Freedom of Information Advisory Council issued an opinion in 2001 that found police are within their legal rights to release such data.

But the information remains off line as the debate continues.

For how long?????

Houck said he decided to ask for the study after citizens called his office to complain about the newspaper. While it was not a great number of calls, "the intensity was pretty strong," he said.

Dang skippy!

My latest letter to the editor:

I was glad to see that the Roanoke Times took down the gun permit database, out of a concern for safety and caution. But then I learned that a guard was hired for Mr. Trejbal's home.

Exactly who's safety was important in making this decision? Mr. Trejbal, or the countless thousands of Virginians affected by the article?

I've been waiting for my armed guard to show up. You have my address.

xxxx xxxx
 
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I 've always wondered why the only people who get CHPs are the ones without criminal records. The felons don't apply for CHPs, and they can carry concealed if they want to without one, so why have CHPs in the first place? :banghead:
 
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Emailed to the above, and also Rep. McQuigg (the "madam"):
--------------------------------------------
Dear Sirs and Madam:

As I'm sure you are by now aware, Virginia Concealed Handgun Permit (CHP) holders received a rude awakening to a Freedom of Information Act (FOIA) loophole regarding the unprotected status of their personal information, when on 3/11/07 the Roanoke Times published a database of all names and addresses of CHP holders registered by the commonwealth.

Some would like you to pass special legislation exempting CHP holders' personal information from FOIA requests. However, I would like to suggest to you all that the solution to this problem is not more law, but less law.

Already two states in the Union do not require special permission in order to carry a concealed handgun - Alaska and Vermont. I respectfully submit to you that our commonwealth should be the third state to adopt this position.

While this topic is in people's minds, I would like you all to consider the incident at Tony's Pizza in Manassas on 13 January 2007. This incident demonstrates that when the commonwealth passes unnecessary laws with complicated exceptions, not even 911 operators - indeed, not even the police! - can be relied upon to know when the law is actually being broken.

Therefore I would ask you to see to it that not only the permit process, but all special prohibitions be removed.

Thank you for your time, and thank you for your service to the Commonwealth.

XXXXXXXX
------------------------------------------------------
 
What an interesting turn of events. :)

What should be our strategy in pushing for Vermont style carry though? Should we try to rationalize it to the legislators? As in, pointing out the antis were proved wrong about "blood in the streets," and that the law-abiding will still be the good guys with or without a permit. Or perhaps focus on the fact that the only people who can't get permits are criminals who won't obey the permit law anyway.

Or will such rationalization of our rights leave us open to future attacks from antis armed with dodgy "statistics" who try to rationalize our rights away?
 
ALASKA NOT VERMONT style CC

Folks hold on a min.

We want ALASKA style CC laws. With the Alaska law you CAN apply for a permit if you need one for state reciprocity carry. The Vermont law does not have this provision and it is causing problems for Vermonters who want to CC in other states.

Lets be careful what we ask for we might just wind up worse off than we are now.

Regards:banghead:
 
Yep, AK is the best of both worlds, permit wise. Open carry is legal here as well, seems like a great fit for Virginia.

If the AK model goes in, and it would behoove y'all to get on the horn so legislators can start doing research now, there's no reason not to block the identities of the voluntary permit holders as well. Protect both sides.
 
Re: Va CCW List..Writing To Advertisers

Cngerms, Can't wait for your list!

I think Trejbal should consider going to work for the NY Times.:evil:

I guess you fellers wouldn't know what Dressage is offhand, it's one of the English disciplines. This link might 'splane it, dunno. http://www.thorncroft.org/dad.htm

I enjoy competing in Musical Freestyle, Quadrille, and Pas de Deux. I'm at the training level. I've been taking the I.P.E.C. Dressage tests. I also like Western riding, and competition. This is besides enjoying target shooting. I'd actually like to be doing the Mounted SASS events.

I'm going to write Deeds et al about getting the Vermont-Alaska style carry. I'd like for Va to be a "shall issue state" like Pa.

Stanzie
 
Re: Bugged Advertisers??

It seems that some advertisers are a little miffed. Look what this one said, "give it up!" If that is their attitude about our agony about the list reveal, then that would be somebody else I would NOT patronize.

I got this in my Inbox:
"[email protected]"

I don't advertise with the roanoke times, and have not for over a year. Give it up!
Well, la-de, da!
Stanzie
 
Yes Stanzie, you splaned it well. Now I get it! I had no idea before the link. Thanks! That's great stuff!

Actually, VA is a shall-issue state, so we're good there.

Yes, some of the return emails we're getting are nasty, but most are positive. Hurley Photo does actively advertise w/ the RT or one of its affiliates (maybe NRV) so they're feeding you a line.
 
Re: Advertizers miffed....

Thanks, Cngerms, Dressage is a neat sport.

Hmmm, the way Drew 'splained to me, Va wasn't like Pa. on the 'shall issue' stuff. Don't think Va. honors Pa. permits. I had to apply for a Pa. permit, so I would be "legal" in Pa, so I could travel there to see him. I'd like to see Virginia honor Pa. permits.

Hurley Photo can forgetabout my business!

Stanzie
 
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