Versus vs Versus : Challenge

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sm

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I challenge folks to go 72 hours without posting a versus thread around here.

Do you folks realize how many versus thread we have had of late?
We have even had some post on other forums , links to THR, to get folks to post and vote on versus threads on THR.

Un-ethical to say the least.

Downright childish and immature if one thinks about it, and totally rude to new folks with a legitimate question about comparing two or three guns, actions, calibers and the like.

Actions of some hurt the whole. These silly tribal wars are not promoting responsible firearm ownership, instead it does give those against responsible firearm owners ammunition against us.

Instead of a person with a kid getting some input from others with kids about what guns fit a kid to learn on, we get a mob mentality.

Maybe a physically limited person, hand injury perhaps and wanting to hear from other that have the same problems, or from one of our Doctors, Nurses, Physical Therapists that is familiar with that injury and assisting shooters with that injury folks totally forget it is about others and shooting and not always about them and shooting.

Step out of your shoes and try on those shoes of a parent, grandparent or someone wanting a gun for a kid.
Step into the shoes of someone that has a handicap and really needs advice, some input from those that know.

Would you appreciate a forum going into a childish "mine is better" mode?

Kids are our future, and one of our best natural resources are our older citizens.

Surely folks are not that insecure they have to have others agree with them in order to have some self esteem.
It is one thing to ask about a gun left in the family if it is all right to shoot, or should it be left alone and kept for sentimental reasons, for a safety reason.

It is another to insult someone's intelligence because they do not shoot the same gun, as you do.

You do not know if that person is using a issued weapon and that is the weapon they have to use.
It might be a sentimental gun a parent, now passed left them, heck even one they won out competing.

Spring is coming in some areas of the country faster than others. Use some of that "versus" energy and do some clean up at the range.
Go shop for a .22 gun for a kid to shoot, go buy some .22 ammo, eyes, ears for a new shooter to use.

Volunteer to cook hot dawgs, hamburgers, for a kids day, ladies day, new shooter day , and even for the physically limited to come out and shoot.

I assure the world will keep turning without a versus thread. The world made it this long without Internet and these threads and it can survive without them still.

Now that kid, or new shooter, or handicapped person could use some help.
That range needing some work day stuff needs to be done...

Then again some letters could be written, and Freedom being preserved is always a good something to do.



The high-minded man must care more for the truth than for what people think. - Aristotle
 
Most of those threads do remind me of a bunch of schoolkids arguing about their "favorites."

What's your favorite color? I like red.

Red? You're crazy. Red is for sissies. I like blue.

You like blue? I hate blue. Give me green any day.

Only sick people like green! Red is better than green!

Oh yeah?

Yeah! Wanna make something of it?
Click to expand...

Useful firearms evaluations require knowledge and provide information. "My friend's baby's mama saw a Glock once and didn't like it but she really liked a Kahr" is babble. So is "I heard about a guy who had a KB! and went peepee on the poopoo so I like a Jennings because its cheaper and I just started shooting last year and I know everything."
 
I predict the challenge will be over as soon as our resident pollmeisters log on. Really been flooded lately with these VS polls and I for one am just not going to respond anymore...
 
sm, if your challenge works, could you also challenge folks to use the search button versus not using the search button?

Most of those threads do remind me of a bunch of schoolkids arguing about their "favorites."
Click to expand...

It is so hard to tell where being the uber aware and oh-so-much smarter than sheeple sheepdogs start and the schoolkids end. Heck, many of the gun owners somehow think their guns are a direct reflection of who the owners are as people and so to be critical of the gun is to be critical of the owner.

Red is for sissies. That is why I wear pink.
 
Thanks for posting this Sm. Even though I don't think it'll make any difference. Maybe some will stop & think though.
 
It is so hard to tell where being the uber aware and oh-so-much smarter than sheeple sheepdogs start and the schoolkids end. Heck, many of the gun owners somehow think their guns are a direct reflection of who the owners are as people and so to be critical of the gun is to be critical of the owner.
Click to expand...

I like the resonance to "the uber aware and oh-so-much smarter than sheeple sheepdogs." Good way to put it.

There's value to comparisons between products--including firearms--but that value derives mainly from the purpose of the comparison, the relevance and nature of the information provided, and the competence of the person who presents it.

The "Glock versus M&P" threads as commonly seen in these forums are just embarrassing, and any thread that includes a poll of that nature is juvenile. It implies that such numbers are of any value. Does anyone who participates in them really think that the way to decide on a handgun is to ask a bunch of unknown people on the Internet to vote which they like and then to tabulate the numbers. Who in his right mind would base a decision on the result. It's a way to stir the pot and to choose up teams for a schoolyard game. Mature people behave differently. Knowledgable people recoil in disgust.
 
Taking off my smart arse hat for a moment, sorry sm and Robert.

I'm just curious about how many people ask for the opinion on two very different styles of firearm.

"Which should I get, a CZ-75 or a Glock 22?" for example.

Externally, both are high capacity, reliable fighting pistols. But their trigger systems are vastly different, their grip designs likewise, as is trigger reach.

And both have adherents, though I haven't seen a CZ version of "Firepower!", our alleged Pakistani Glock guru.

Seriously, some of these questions border on comic book fandom - who could stop a nuclear war more easily, Superman or Batman?

Both are guys in funny pajamas, but other than that, they are vastly different characters with very different styles of storytelling.

I can see "what issues are there with this particular pistol I'm thinking of buying?"

I can sort of see "which CZ design - original or clone?"

But surely, most of these seem to be firecrackers dropped in the pig pen just for the OP's grins and giggles at listening to the squeals of protest.
 
I can see "what issues are there with this particular pistol I'm thinking of buying?"

I can sort of see "which CZ design - original or clone?"

But surely, most of these seem to be firecrackers dropped in the pig pen just for the OP's grins and giggles at listening to the squeals of protest.
Click to expand...

That's a good way to put it. And firecrackers in the pig pen is not what this forum is for. Thanks, Steve, for posting this. Here's hoping it is taken seriously.

Springmom
 
sympathize with ya' sm, but I doubt that you'll get the attention of the ones you are trying to reach.

"vs." threads are as dumb as "which is best" type threads. These posters will never understand that everything is subjective.
 
We have new folks that cycle in from time to time and always will.
The sad reality is, many are not being raised with firearms in the home, not with any parent or mentor to assist them.

This is not a age related "cycle" either.
In the blink of an eye, someone can have a car wreck, be diagnosed with cancer, have heart surgery, hip, surgery, neck, back surgery and so much more.
Arthritis kicks in for some.

Like kind best assist like kind. Ladies can assist ladies better when it comes to many topics from being pregnant, to dealing with other personal matters that may affect shooting men do not experience with.
No male has been pregnant, so they do not have any inkling what it is like to deal with shooting, if they should, should not or any aspect.

So a lady expecting has a legitimate question about carry methods. This is just one new life change for 9 months.
She needs to know from other ladies, moms, about perhaps shoulder holster versus ankle.

"Well honey, you cannot see your feet, much less bend down to tie shoes, so forget ankle carry" .

Not funny! Damn Serious! Do you want some person making fun of your wife that is pregnant and posting a "Vs" thread as she is concerned and baffled as to how to carry a gun, if she should shoot, and if so did anyone else find their gun was not really easy to shoot while pregnant?


Your mom or dad falls and breaks a hip.
Do you want someone getting into a school yard pissing match when you ask about "this vs that" for them and firearm needs?

It hurts like hell having hip surgery. The weight of a gun hurts, normal holster hurts.

You will not see me talk down to a person that says they normally carry a Glock, 1911, Plastic, Metal, of any caliber, and really want to know the difference in a J frame or Colt Detective Special , how much one used might gun, which is easier for them to maintain or if they would be nuts for using in a shoulder holster - that has had hip surgery.

It does make a damn if they drop down from whatever Gun or Caliber, to a snubby in 38spl!

They got a gun, they are taking prudent steps to know that gun like a body part, and they will carry the gun.

Unlike many that have guns, just are afraid they will get scratched, or dinged, or get sweated on, or ...maybe....what if....but hit every thread and poll so their side wins.

I want the person with the well worn .38spl snubby with rust speckles and stinky holster from sweat watching my six.

I do not want the nice shiny gun and pretty holster that is never shot, cleaned with the most newest gun cleaning stuff all the time, posted often with pretty pictures watching my six.

News Flash: Guns are dangerous tools, and no tool is ever better than the user of the tool , and if the user cannot use the damn thing, what good is it?

I swear! If one were to market black with pink polka dot underwear would make one a better shooter, cure cancer, rich, handsome/ pretty, and whatever hip, slick and cool one is supposed to be...
Someone is going to get rich for starters and there would be run on black with pink polka dot underwear.

Yo dude, you practice much ?
No dude, I got the BPDUs on, I am so bad I am Ultimate Extremeness.
 
Gotta agree, SM. The lion's share of the versus" posts are... tedious... to put it politely. Especially so for the "this/that" caliber threads simply because there are so many calibers that will "git 'er done" just fine - at least for hunters and for many target sports.

:cool:
 
Really, most of those threads have been gone over so many time that three minutes worth of search either here or even on google will get plenty of answers.

It's all subjective.
What works well for one may not suit another.
And realisitcally, it's all technicalities - almost any gun in good working order will basically fill whatever role it fills as well as any other good gun in that category would.
It's just kind of pointless to argue about it.

Last, unless you really are totally inexperienced, why even bother to ask?
Threads like that can't be answered by anyone other than the original poster because only he or she can figure out whether he likes the Glock more than the SIG, etc...

For crying out loud people...
I've never even met you before and I have no idea what would work better for you.
Go check them out yourself.
I'm not being rude. I simply can't tell you what will work best for you.
How could I?
I'm not you.
Only you can figure it out.
 
I'm just curious about how many people ask for the opinion on two very different styles of firearm.

"Which should I get, a CZ-75 or a Glock 22?" for example.
Click to expand...

If so, I'd be curious about whether these same people would ask other questions of a similar nature on the Internet:

  1. "Who should I marry, Audrey or Brenda or Todd?"
  2. "Should I quit my job as an accountant and become a tight rope walker in the circus?"
  3. "Do you recommend the fish or should I have a hamburger? What about a steak?"
  4. "I have this big growth on my forehead. Is it benign or shouldn't I let my mom cut it off?"
  5. "Is my girl cheating on me?"
  6. "Would I look good in a butch haircut or do you think it would clash with my evening dress?"
  7. "Do you think Harry meant it when he said he loved me or is he just interested in my football?"

How could anyone rational ask such questions of people they don't know and who don't know them. Or have I just answered that question and everyone else's too?

Let me help. You remember the first gun you asked about? Get that one: it's perfect for you. But if you don't think so, the second one is the better choice. And if that doesn't work out get something different.

That will be $50 for the consultation. Please upload your credit card information. Can you trust us? Of course: you've trusted us to choose your handgun, wife, job, surgery, relationship, appearance, and emotional well being. Why not trust us with your credit card too?
 
That's a bit of a stretch.

The CZ or Glock question is more akin to "Should I buy a Chevy Vega or an AMC Gremlin?"

I really don't see anything wrong with such questions. I for one have no idea which I would buy if given the choice (they aren't exactly my dream cars) and I'd consider it prudent to seek advice. If I sought such advice it would be in a forum where members may have (had) both.

The problem with The Audry/Brenda/Todd type questions is a lack of background information. The backstory would read like a novel or soap opera and nobody wants that. Gun questions are usually much simpler and the background can usually be approximated well enough with a few broad strokes. E.g., "I need a gun for tuckin' under my shirt..."
 
gentlemen, this very topic has been bothering me for weeks. I mostly lurk and learn, respond when I have direct knowledge. I dont answer stupid polls, trolling posts, and as Joe/redneck said hope the go away
SM- your my hero. you have the ability to put my thoughts on paper.
As for being infirm, two years ago I was a high speed, low drag prime of life, do anything kind of guy. then came the plastic hip, plate in the neck, and and a huge bowel resection. So now Im a low speed/high drag, cautious, more aware of other people kind of guy. I dont shoot 45 much anymore but im real good with my 9's and 38's. dont really care what other people think anymore. took two of my rehab friends shooting and they now shoot regularly.
i got your six with my old well worn 9 or 38
 
Ok, sm. How about a straight up question? You've waxed poetic about single shot shotguns a bit lately, and it seems to have caught a few eyes.

Any opinions on buying something like the sb2-231 Handi rifle in 30-30 and sending it in to have a shotgun barrel fitted to it? How do you like the single shot rifles, as romantic as the shotguns?
 
That's a bit of a stretch.

The CZ or Glock question is more akin to "Should I buy a Chevy Vega or an AMC Gremlin?"

I really don't see anything wrong with such questions. I for one have no idea which I would buy if given the choice (they aren't exactly my dream cars) and I'd consider it prudent to seek advice. If I sought such advice it would be in a forum where members may have (had) both.

The problem with The Audry/Brenda/Todd type questions is a lack of background information. The backstory would read like a novel or soap opera and nobody wants that. Gun questions are usually much simpler and the background can usually be approximated well enough with a few broad strokes. E.g., "I need a gun for tuckin' under my shirt..."
Click to expand...

Nope, Ed, it's not a stretch at all. It's only that you don't understand and aren't making the mental stretch required for you to understand. Not my problem. Your problem.

The problem with the "CZ or Glock" question is the same as the problem with the "Audrey, Brenda, or Todd" question, which is the same problem as that with the "Chevy Vega or AMC Gremlin" question.

To clear the decks and prove once and for all that I'm a reasonable, sensitive, helpful person, I'll answer all three of those questions definitively:

  1. CZ or Glock.: Get a CZ. It's better. It will work for you.
  2. Audrey, Brenda, or Todd. Go for Todd. He'll make you happy. I guarantee it.
  3. Chevy Vega or AMC Gremlin.The Vega is a piece of junk. You'll like the Gremlin better.

Cut out the middleman with questions like those on any subject at all. Just ask me and I'll tell you what's best for you.

What you're not receiving from these transmissions, Ed, is that with very few exceptions nobody knows the person asking or the people answering.

At least part of the time you may be seeing responses from kids or teens or even adults who have never owned or used what they're challenging or recommending. At other times you're seeing responses from people who haven't owned or used anything else. At still other times you're seeing responses from people who are unskilled. Those are among your pool of advisors, Ed.

You might find it useful to have a great many such opinions, but even a Mauna Kea of unqualified opinions from unreliable and inexperienced people is no better than just one such opinion. Lots of bad is no better than just a little bad.

Example: The Shotgun section in The High Road is one of the best of its kind on the Internet, and it's distinguished because of people like Dave McCracken, Lee Lapin, SM, ArmedBear, and a very few others. Because of them I read that section for years before I joined this forum. So I laugh--hard--when I see messages from people who don't know much directly contradicting what they say.

Just as bad, you're getting advice from people who have no idea of who you are, your physical condition, your skills, or anything else except what you might tell them--and which may or may not be useful in giving good advice. Gun store salesmen often give the worst purchasing advice possible: it's usually so bad as to be a cliche of bad advice. But at least they can see you.

I can't see you, Ed, and I don't know you, so I don't know if you have diabetes and can't see more than the outline of a dark target, or whether you're right handed but left eye dominant, or have an eyetracking problem, or don't know how to hold a shotgun or handgun, or any of numerous other crucial factors. And if you ask a "CZ or Glock?" question here, you don't know enough about yourself to provide essential information. The question itself is a tipoff to the knowledge level of the person asking it.

Take, for example, your example: "Gun questions are usually much simpler and the background can usually be approximated well enough with a few broad strokes. E.g., 'I need a gun for tuckin' under my shirt...'." What shirt, Ed? Do you wear it loose or inside your belt? Do you live in Hawaii, Ohio, or Alaska? What do you do for a living? Do you spend much of your time in an office, a store, a long haul truck, a car and if so which, how do other people in your vicinity dress, do you wear a suit and tie or sport jacket or jeans, do you wear light colored shirts or dark or patterned. How much do you weigh, and is it muscle or fat? How well trained are you or, rather, if you've asked that question, how badly trained are you?

Ed, at one point in my life I carried a cocked and locked Government model 1911 in an inside-the-waistband holster, wore a suit and tie, and nobody knew it. I've seen someone draw a shotgun from under his shirt, and for all I know I pass others in the streets who are doing the same. I know I could do it then because I did do it then. I also know that I couldn't do it now. I know he could do the shotgun thing because I've seen him do it. Who on the Internet could possibly know what you can or can't do?

Theoretical analyses and disputations are wonderful pastimes, Ed, and that's what these kinds of questions are: pastimes. Some pastimes, though, are harmful and even dangerous, and that's the trouble with the kind SM is trying to address and other kinds I see often discussed in these forums. Some of them can get people killed or sent to prison. In this domain of theoretical expertise the prevailing weather is impenetrable fog.

SM is not talking about rational discussion or the exchange of intelligent opinions based on solid experience, or at least I don't think he is, nor am I. They can be useful. But they get buried under the fog of "CZ or Glock?"

So what's your favorite color?

Postscript: Ed, I just learned something really useful from the Internet, in this very forum. Did you know that the tritium vials in night sights can be rejuvenated by rubbing alcohol on them with a Q tip? You can read it here: http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=347724 This information is of major importance. Pass it on. Lots of equally good information on the Internet.
 
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