Very strange .44 magnum load result

[beatledog7]

Guys, this is just weird, and I have no idea what happened. I loaded some Hornady 240gr SWC-HP bullets into CBC cases, and when I got done I wanted to lightly wipe down the finished rounds; these bullets come dusted in a dry lube that gets everywhere.

So, I'm wiping down the first couple and suddenly I think, did I just feel that bullet move? Sure enough, I was able to actually rotate the bullet inside the case mouth. I don't know if this would have happened before crimping (I used a Lee FCD to apply a moderate roll after seating with a normal seating die set to not crimp), but it was sure happening now. Checked a couple more--they all do it to varying degrees!

These are .430" bullets, and the case diameters of the finished rounds are actually .002 or so smaller than the .454" spec in the Lyman manual. I pulled one round and measured the bullet diameter where it was inside the case, and .4265" is what I got. Did the FCD post size these rounds? I didn't feel anything like that going on as I crimped the rounds, so I'm perplexed.

Any idea what has happened here? Do I need to pull them all, resize the cases, and chock the lost bullets up to experience (assuming they are all now as small as the one I pulled)? Any thoughts appreciated, even the "Hey Dummy" kind.

 

[zxcvbob]

Try a couple more, this time use the seating die to crimp (with the seating stem backed out. Then you should have your answer.

It could also be that you didn't expand the cases enough for those soft lead bullets -- but at least then they should have been tight!

 

[beatledog7]

Just built a new one. Resized the case, belled it just a bit, and seated a new bullet, then crimped with the seating die. Same result. I can easily rotate the bullet inside the case mouth. Puzzling.

There's no way I can even think about shooting these in this condition, right?

 

[beatledog7]

A while back I loaded some of these same bullets into .44 SPL cases, Starline. Just checked, and they do not exhibit this problem. Could it be the CBC brass is so thin that it won't size down enough to achieve neck tension?

 

[Sport45]

Is the bullet tight in the case before you crimp?

 

[beatledog7]

Is the bullet tight in the case before you crimp?

Yes, seems plenty so.

 

[243winxb]

Could it be the CBC brass is so thin that it won't size down enough to achieve neck tension?

Yes. Check the expander diameter, it should be .002" or more smaller than bullet diameter. Do not use the FCD to crimp.

 

[mbartel500]

If I remember, CBC brass is made in Brazil. Their brass alloys and tolerances may not be compatible with your dies. I would suggest new Starline or Federal brass to put together some new loads. I have used this brass with Lee dies for over 30 years with no problems at all. I seat all bullets first, then perform the moderate roll crimp afterwards. If the new brass doesn't solve the problem, then it is the crimp/seating die. It may have a rough spot in the ground radius where the brass is roll crimped into the bullet. It might just be enough to cause the brass to very slightly buckle while rolling the neck in. Also with the new brass, be sure to use a de-burring tool to clean the case necks inside, and out. Also, if the bullets are entering the case a little cock-eyed, that could cause the loose neck tension problem. Hope this reply has helped you to solve your problem.

 

[beatledog7]

Expander is exactly .428. When I first loaded these, I didn't need to use it at all.

 

[beatledog7]

mbartel500,

Thanks. I've pretty much concluded it's the brass. Maybe I need to try some oversize bullets, say, .432. I really hate wasting brass that's primed.

Is there anything I can do with these short of pulling them, and can the bullets be saved?

 

[earplug]

Resizing bullet in LEE die

I tried the LEE factory taper seating die with my 45 ACP loads with cast bullets.
I ended up with undersize bullets causing leading.
What I believe is happening is the seater/resizer is squeezing down the case and the lead bullet. The case is able to spring back somewhat. The lead bullet gets deformed and does not spring back.

 

[Sport45]

Can you post a picture of your crimp?

 

[GooseGestapo]

It's the Lee factory crimp die.

I'm not slamming the dies as they have their uses, but shouldn't be used unless you NEED them.

You're sizing down the entire case after seating the bullet and sizing the bullet too, in the process. And undoubtably ruining/destroying any accuracy potential.

Unless you cannot chamber the final loaded rounds WITHOUT RUNNING THEM THROUGH THE LEE FACTORY CRIMP DIE, DON'T USE IT.

I have/use CBC brass for the .44mag and .45Colt and really like it.
But,I DON'T use the factory crimp dies for straight taper case cartridges.
But, I don't use the factory crimp dies (rifle) unless the bullets have a cannulure and NEED the crimp such as ammo for a .45/70, .35Rem,.30/30, or .338MX used in a LEVER ACTION rifle.....
Not needed for bolt action or single shot rifles, and such....

I DO use the factory crimp dies for rifle and tapered pistol cases (ie: 9mm Para). These dies are completely different in design and application..... and don't size down the area of the seated bullets.

 

[Sport45]

It's not the Lee Factory Crimp die.

I don't think we can blame the FCD since he had the same problem when crimping with the seating die. He also said he didn't feel anything going as as the cartridhe passed through the FCD.

 

[kelbro]

It may be the mica dust.

Push the loaded cartridge against your bench and see if the bullet moves deeper. If not, shoot 'em.

I have seen factory ammo where you could rotate the bullet but it would not seat deeper when the nose was pressed against the bench. It worked fine.

 

[Curator]

Beetledog,

You say you measured a "pulled" bullet at .4265? These are jacketed bullets? No way the LFC die sized these down through the brass case. Your bullets are undersize from the factory. Measure more of your unloaded bullets. I have had ".430" Hornady bullets that were undersize too. Apparently Hornady makes a .4265 diameter bullet for the .44-40 (optimally .427 diameter) and perhaps these sometimes get mixed up with the ones made for the .44 Mag which should be .429-.430. I also have a box or ".308" 150 grain PSP Hornady bullets that mike .3055 and another box of supposedly ".311" diameter Speer 150 grain bullets that measure .3095 so undersize bullets are not that unusual.

 

[beatledog7]

Thanks to all for taking the time to read and respond. I don't have a micrometer, but using calibers these swc-hp bullets measure .430" very consistently. The looseness results from the application of roll crimp with either the fcd or the regular seating die.

Kelbro says as long as they don't incur setback from pressing against the bench they should be safe to shoot. Do I have a consensus on that? I count on neck tension to hold bullets long enough to achieve the required pressure, and these dont have it. Am I likely to have squibs if I shoot them?

 

[BADUNAME37]

If the problem is directly related to the Lee FCD, it illustrates a very important point. Just when we think we have found just the right tool to do whatever, we find out (sometimes, quite by accident) that the very thing we thought was/is 'best' is now the cause of some new problem!

I agree with others that the bullets were most likely the wrong diameter to begin with.

OTOH (however), I can easily see just how the FCD could "resize" both the case neck ALONG WITH THE PROJECTILE and the brass will undoubtedly "spring-back" to a certain extent which, I can see, would easily result in the problems the OP mentioned in the beginning post!

 

[Sport45]

Friendly, Dont Fire, Did you see this?

The looseness results from the application of roll crimp with either the fcd or the regular seating die.

It's not the FCD.

Beatledog,

Do you notice any lead shaving when you seat the bullets?

 

[beatledog7]

Some very minor shaving on one or two, but pulled bullets still have the sort of pebbled pattern on the shanks, so it seems clear that the issue is that the bullets are somehow being squeezed rather than shaved to .426 or so rather than the case being pushed out to accept them.

Given the relative softness of these bullets, if the case brass is somehow really hard (these have been fired once and resized once), the cases would have no give and the bullets would get squeezed. OTOH, they press in quite easily on the single stage; if the bullets are being squeezed from .430 to .426, then shouldn't the effort to press them in be rather substantial?

 

[GP100man]

The Hornady bullets are swaged from pure lead & are very soft !!!

The knurl pattern allows downsizing kinda easily IMHO, but down to .426 ???

You`d see some misplaced lead somewhere or very thin knurling .

The issue is the CBC brass ,it`s on the hard spectrum for brass & when crimped it bows the case out ,loosening the grip on the bullet enableing it to be twisted when roll crimped & you actually resize the bullet when the FCD is used & the brass springs back .

Are the cases nickel ?? if so put em in the scrap bucket ,if not anneal a few & retry .

Annealing to the point of discoloring the brass IS NOT neccasary ,just get the mouths warm enuff to sizzle when they hit the water, & after ya learn a technique (counting or anything ya wanna to time flame time) quenching is`nt required .

Just as log as the brass hits 450-550f & not over 700f.

 

[BADUNAME37]

Are you checking to make sure these cases do not need to be trimmed at all?

I could envision a case that is a bit too long bowing outwardly when (if) the crimping die is pressing DOWNWARDLY on the case during the crimping operation!

When one works with so many parameters, every single aspect has to be examined and each and every one of them ruled out!



GP100 just stated the same thing I did (I didn't notice his post until after I posted this)!

 

[Walkalong]

The OP says the neck tension was fine until he crimped them. That means something about the crimping is hurting neck tension.

Perhaps this combo of brass thickness, bullet diameter/softness, and FCD carbide ring diameter is damaging neck tension. Perhaps not.

Perhaps he is simply over crimping which is bulging the brass hurting neck tension.

Perhaps some of both.

Suggestions:

Trim the brass if it is not fairly consistent in length. (Deburr & Chamfer)

Check neck tension after seating. If it is OK, then the previous crimping is still the prime suspect.

Assuming neck tension is good, take half of the rounds and use the seater without the stem to carefully crimp the seated rounds.

Then take the other half and carefully crimp them with the FCD.

Compare the two batches for neck tension. Shoot both batches and see how they shoot.

 

[beatledog7]

Lots of possible explanations for the loose neck tension, so again my thanks to all, but it seems everyone is avoiding the question of whether these rounds can be safely shot. I get that nobody wants to be on the hook for that judgement, but given the rules of THR, nobody would be.

Attached is an image. The bullet shank still has the knurling and measures .4265. The outer diameter of the brass before seating is .451. After seating still .451 along the entire length. After crimping as pictured, regardless of whether I use the FCD or the seated with the plug back out, is still .451.

I'm just asking what you guys would do if you had this result. I've got built rounds with inadequate or at least less than normal neck tension. How much less is impossible to say, because I don't know how close to this condition any number of other rounds might be. My options are to take them apart or shoot them.

If I take them apart, what can be done to save the cases with seated primers? Is there any use for the shrunken .426" bullets?

What is likely to happen if I shoot them? I'm sure accuracy will suffer to a degree from the shrunken diameter bullets, but what sort of pressure issues are likely? Seems to me one of two things will happen when I pull the trigger:

1) the bullet will start moving before there is sufficient pressure and may squib.
2) the round will fire normally but insufficient bullet to groove contact will result in weak spin and thus erratic POI.

Thoughts?

 

[rcmodel]

Shoot them.

At the worst, you will get some leading.
At the best, you won't, because the soft swaged bullets will bump up to fit when you fire them.

It is not a Safety issue at all, unless you can push them back in the case when pressing as hard as you can against the edge of your bench.

Expander is exactly .428.

Regardless of any other case issues you have, your expander is too big for jacketed or lead bullets.

Take a drill & emery paper and turn it down to .427" at least to get proper neck tension in any cases.

I do agree that you have some issues with your CBC brass.

rc