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Virginia's next move

Discussion in 'Activism Discussion and Planning' started by jr45, Nov 7, 2019.

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  1. JohnKSa

    JohnKSa Moderator Staff Member

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    Assuming all this as true, then from an activism standpoint, what are you advising as a solution?

    Are you claiming that a politically neutral outreach effort into the liberal community will result in changing views that translate into votes against gun control and for gun rights?

    I have to say I'm skeptical. I'm certainly familiar with the reality that there are those who self-identify as liberal or conservative but don't hold the mainline views on gun rights/gun control that are typically associated with their political leaning. They're not common but they are out there. The problem, in my experience, is that they almost inevitably vote their party not their views on gun rights/gun control. Which means that such outreach efforts would be, from a practical standpoint, wasted effort.

    Furthermore, I'm not entirely on board with the idea that the association of gun rights with conservatives and the association of gun control with liberals is some sort of conspiracy perpetrated on an unsuspecting populace by the NRA, or by any other entity. It seems to me that the general, foundational principles of conservatism and liberalism heavily influence the gun rights/gun control views of each group. Looking at other countries where there is no NRA, where the U.S. lobbying organizations don't exist, and where the political parties have different names seems to bear this out.
     
  2. alsaqr

    alsaqr Member

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    This^^^^^

    1. Preaching to the choir on gun boards is a waste of time.

    2. Get involved in the election of city council folks, county commissioners, sheriffs, and school board members. That's where many state legislators come from.

    3. Write your state and federal legislators?

    4. Simply donating money to pro-gun organizations won't get it done.

    5. VOTE!!!

    i hear lots of complaining, usually after the fact; also read large numbers of rants. i don't see many folks getting together and agreeing on a plan.
     
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  3. jr45

    jr45 Member

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    +1
    It will take both money and actual physical effort/participation to hope have any effect. A lot on here keep regurgitating the same “it won’t work, demographics too great, political associations, etc.” without coming up with alternatives. Few here made recommendations and we could use others.
     
    Last edited: Nov 10, 2019
  4. AlexanderA
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    AlexanderA Member

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    The situation in Virginia is that the best hope to stymie (or moderate) the governor's worst antigun plans lies with the few Democrat legislators, mostly from rural areas, that might be open to hearing our arguments. For example, it's almost a foregone conclusion that some form of UBC's will be passed. But, these UBC's don't necessarily have to involve FFL's, transfer fees, Form 4473's, and entries in dealers' "bound books." There's already an existing (voluntary) system in which the State Police are required to have tables at every gun show, and to offer direct background checks to buyers/sellers on request. This system could be expanded as an acceptable alternative to going through an FFL.

    The pro-gun lobby needs to reach out to these moderate Democrats. It's counterproductive, at this point, to stay wholly within the Republican tent. We have to have proposals ready to mitigate the worst aspects of the antigun agenda. Stonewalling won't cut it anymore.
     
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  5. BSA1

    BSA1 member

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    Only if the choir members carry the same tune. There are a very vocal group of members on THR that support UBC’s, waiting periods, prohibiting folks with mental disorders and minority’s from owning guns.
     
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  6. GEM

    GEM Moderator Staff Member

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    I won't repeat myself. Mining conservative rural votes for the last nonvoter is a long term loser. Believe it or not. If you think an expansive message can't be crafted, then the cause is lost. The tying of guns to 'conservative' values is exactly the problem. Some folks want the gun club to be ideologically exclusive with total purity and absolutism. Thus, you face total loss. The idea that that SCOTUS will save the day is an unknown. Strong statements by some justices doesn't mean that will be what happens if a decisive case goes to court. The NYC and Remington cases just nibble around the edges and won't speak to wiping out state bans (the major threat), freeing up and legitimizing carry (some say NYC will - I don't think so).

    The disarmament of the populace down to limited handguns and shotguns is on the way.
     
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  7. JohnKSa

    JohnKSa Moderator Staff Member

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    I don't disagree with this. What I question is the idea that "tying" was an active endeavor perpetrated on the public by an organization (or organizations) as opposed to being the the most natural outgrowth of the fundamental principles of the political viewpoint.
    I agree. But when it happens, it won't be because gun owners were unwilling to welcome liberals into the fold, it will be because the left collectively rejected the general principles of gun rights and because even the minority on the left who did support gun rights still gave the majority of their support to politicians who pursued gun control.
     
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  8. badkarmamib

    badkarmamib Member

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    Sad. The 2A was supposed to protect the constitutional rights of the people against a tyrannical government. The government will have won without having to fire a single shot, because the people asked them to.
     
    Last edited: Nov 10, 2019
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  9. AlexanderA
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    AlexanderA Member

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    I don't believe that there are people on THR that support UBC's and the other things out of principle. However, if things are going to pass anyway, it might be wise to dialogue with the antis in order to mitigate the damage. None of these things, including UBC's, are binary choices. There is always a range of options, some of which are significantly worse (or better) than others.
     
  10. hso

    hso Moderator Staff Member

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    I think many are making the mistake of acting as if "conservative" or "liberal" are the only group relevant to this discussion. The great number of independents or undeclared or even somewhat liberal or somewhat conservative are neglected and might be reached if we would drop the "there are only two sorts of voters" absurdity. I'll point out that the Anti propaganda campaign is partly successful because we have shot ourselves in the foot by making this a "conservative" issue AND they have taken those so-called conservatives who shoot their mouths off and turned them into talking points to make Moderates not want to be associated with us.

    Reach out to those rural Democrats who represent districts with and those in the strongly military communities, reach out to the elected Democratic officials in those areas and point out that the north VA urban/suburban area is going to turn VA in IL were Chicago runs the state and the rest is just dragged along. Appeal to their desire to be reelected and make it clear that the extreme positions can loose their seats for them in a backlash like Bill Clinton so richly learned after the AWB.

    We can not keep doing the same thing that helps us loose and must change the tactics that alienate people that aren't Antis.
     
    Last edited: Nov 10, 2019
  11. JERRY

    JERRY Member

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    Virginian's didn't care enough to vote for pro 2nd Amendment candidates, why would anyone think they have what it takes to save things now? 30 seats went to Democrats uncontested, the GOA didn't contribute a penny in this fight. the VCDL started in NoVa and that's where the fewest conservatives are.
     
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  12. ilbob

    ilbob Member

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    The reality is that the voters get to choose their leaders and there is not much in the way of preventing those leaders from coming up with bad ideas to enact into law.
     
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  13. rayatphonix

    rayatphonix Member

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    Our country is becoming more urban each and every year. Grew up in VA but left many decades ago. Friends who still live in the area see no need for a firearm. They’ve never hunted or even shot a rifle, let alone a handgun. Northern VA is very wealthy and by and large safe. There’s a concern, they contact the police. I don’t think we will ever convince most of those residents there’s a need for firearms.

    This is happening all over the country. The big cities, with their big population, have the ability to set the rules that apply statewide and rural residents are left with limited options. Sad times indeed.
     
  14. badkarmamib

    badkarmamib Member

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    I am in the process of trying to get info on Lobby Day (Jan 20, 2020) from the VCDL. I have never been in anything like it, so don't know what to expect, but am hoping to attend as part of a last-minute (or ditch) push to have our voices heard.
     
  15. jr45

    jr45 Member

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    Below is another update from VCDL. We will need to get ready to act and do their part!

     
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  16. alsaqr

    alsaqr Member

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    Folk's it's not a lost cause: The Democrats did not win by a catastrophic landslide. In 2020 the Democrats will control the VA House of Delegates 55-45 and the Senate 21-19. Those are not insurmountable odds.

    Identify the less vociferous about gun control Democrats in the legislature and attempt to deal with them: Talk with the rural Democrats. Suck it up, forget about everything except your Second Amendment rights: Attempt to work with those folks.

    Has anyone rated all the VA legislature members? How many anti-gun Republicans are there, if any?

    i simply don't believe that six pro gun Democrats can't be found in the VA House and two more in the Senate. This could be an easy task for a few good organizers. Problem comes when followers act like folks on gun boards; a gaggle of cats. :D
     
    Last edited: Nov 12, 2019
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  17. alsaqr

    alsaqr Member

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    Who wrote that letter? It's very hard to read.

    Forget the sanctuary stuff. It's simply feel good stuff that accomplishes nothing. .
     
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  18. AlexanderA
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    AlexanderA Member

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    It's not that some Democrats might be "pro-gun" (at least to the extent of bucking their party). It's that some Democrats might be less anti-gun than others. That is where the split might be. I think the red line will be an AWB without grandfathering. We won't find unanimity among the Democrats for that one. Even the governor is waffling on whether he will seek confiscation. Before he does so, he will be doing a head count among his own party.

    On other things, such as UBC's, the devil will be in the details. There's lots of scope for fine-tuning, even though the thing in general is a done deal.
     
  19. Dibbs

    Dibbs Member

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    I do travel through Virginia. Bloomberg bought the state, with a large lump sum, all at once, But might not millions of us, all voting with our wallets,in smaller denominations, be able to buy it back ?
     
  20. AlexanderA
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    AlexanderA Member

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    It's not that simple. Money is only a small part of it.
     
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  21. hso

    hso Moderator Staff Member

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    Bernie just repudiated Robert Francis's mandatory buy-backs/confiscation as unworkable and unconstitutional. It crashed Robert Francis's try for the nomination and was dissed by the benchmark for leftist candidates. That's a great bit to throw at the confiscation proponents.
     
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  22. badkarmamib

    badkarmamib Member

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    As an update, I am going to Lobby Day on 1-20-20 to stand with the VCDL. Got my wife going, got a buddy going, he got his wife and 2 more. This is spreading, we need to have a good show of numbers standing in opposition to these proposals. It is MLK day, so some will already be off work. VCDL lists this as the most important thing they do all year. If you truly believe in "By the people, for the people", and "shall not be infringed", now is the time to make your voices heard.
     
  23. jr45

    jr45 Member

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    Has anyone spoke with or heard from their state senator or delegate since the election? I have spoken with mine.
     
  24. AlexanderA
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    AlexanderA Member

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    The 2020 Assault Weapons Ban bill (Senate Bill 16) has been pre-filed. The text is here:

    https://lis.virginia.gov/cgi-bin/legp604.exe?201+ful+SB16+pdf

    The good news is that the ban on magazines over 10 rounds would not apply to possession (that is, currently-held magazines would be grandfathered), and that suppressors have been dropped from the bill. Machine guns are still not included in the bill, and with their magazines and belts grandfathered, they would continue to be usable. Ordinary pistols (those with magazines housed in the grip) would not be affected by the bill.

    The bad news is that the rest of the bill is the same as what was previewed last summer. No grandfathering of the guns themselves. Even though suppressors would not be illegal, semiautomatic guns (rifles and pistols) with threaded barrels would be, so suppressors could only be used with bolt action rifles and revolvers.

    If two words, "possession" and "transport," are dropped from the one place they appear in the bill, we would have complete grandfathering. I think there's a good chance of that happening provided there's a concerted lobbying effort.

    There's going to be a panic and mad scramble to buy things before the presumed effective date of July 1st.
     
  25. badkarmamib

    badkarmamib Member

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    Lobby Day is Jan. 20th. VCDL is asking everyone who can to attend. This may be our last chance. IOW, there should be no excuse to not attend, if you value your 2A rights.
     
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