Vote Bush instead of third party

[wasrjoe]

So what are you going to do when you don't want either of the major candidates to win? What are you going to do when you are not even interested in any of the third parties? I mean, we hear so often about how useless they are and how we are just voting for the "other guy".

What do you expect those people to do? Why is it that all of a sudden their opinions become trash simply because they felt that neither of the major candidates (the only ones with a chance of winning) come close to representing their ideas?

I'm sorry, but I don't buy into the idea that voting is the only way to express your political opinions. I think it is mostly futile. I'll vote anyway, but there are much more important and effective things that can be done and I won't scoff at anyone for not voting. Believe me, I understand how they feel.

 

[Lone_Gunman]

GeneC, no offense, but your grasp of "rights" is inaccurate..

The First Amendment gives me the right to complain about whatever the hell I want to complain about, whether I vote or not.

Paying taxes gives no one the right for representation. Many people pay no taxes, but they still are represented in our government. They have a right to representation because they are citizens, and not because they pay taxes.

As for this quote:

Lgm, you again? listen, if you're stupid enough to give up your money , someone else may as well spend it, 'cause you certainly can't manage it.

First, I will take that as a personal attack, which generally is not done on The High Road, but I will turn the other cheek and not respond in kind.

Secondly, I suppose your comment is in reference to taxation. I do not think it is "stupid" to pay my taxes. I don't like how much the taxes are, but I don't think paying them would qualify someone as stupid.

 

[Glock Glockler]

Paying taxes gives no one the right for representation. Many people pay no taxes, but they still are represented in our government. They have a right to representation because they are citizens, and not because they pay taxes.

I'm going to play Devil's advocate here, why should non-taxpayers have representation when us taxpayers are carrying their burden? Why should they retain citizenship if they don't pay taxes?

 

[R.H. Lee]

Why should they retain citizenship if they don't pay taxes?

In all fairness, there are millions of senior citizens who have paid taxes all their lives. They currently live on very small pensions or social security and don't reach the tax filing/liability threshhold.

 

[Lone_Gunman]

Glocker, that should be the topic of another thread entirely, and I think discussing that here will only make an already convoluted thread even more complicated.

Start a new thread and I will be happy to discuss.

 

[GeneC]

I'm going to ignore lgm, 'cause he misconstrues too much( btw the reference to you didn't mean "YOU", but anyone. Also, I pay taxes and believe everyone should, but the Govt gives tax breaks and if you don't take advantage of them, you don't have a right to complain about high taxes), but Wasrjoe, well, we'll see. First , we need to separate the PRESIDENTIAL election from all others, as that's the only one where a third party vote won't mean much, UNTIL the infrastructure is in place, which is where ALL other elections are MOST important. If you want a Party to become prominant, VOTE! Vote them into city council, county commissioner, mayor, State Rep, Senate, all the way up and down. When enough States have Congressmen from a particular Party, it will be recognized and will be on the ballots. Of course , all this means is that for all that to happen , it has to be a truly popular Party with ALOT of people around the Country. So either a grass roots effort has to make it's way around the Country, or else you have to accept that you're adhereing to an insignificant Party.

 

[Lone_Gunman]

GeneC, you have to ignore me because I ask you to clarify riduculous comments and you cannot. You make inaccurate statements, I ask for you to explain, and since you can't, you just decide to ignore me.


Arguing about the definition of "you" is a little silly don't you think? Kind of reminds me of Bill Clinton arguing over the definition of "is".

Anyway, whatever.

 

[cloudkiller]

Taxes are more than Income Tax

There are many people who pay no INCOME tax in our society. Many are very rich, many are very poor, and many are criminals.

That being said, I would bet they all pay taxes in other forms. Sales tax is pretty hard to avoid, as are other taxes such as tax on gas, etc. Even drug dealers who make their money in an underground economy, pay taxes.

I would encourage those who say that voting for Bush is a support for the 2A to keep in mind that this administration has substantially increased police powers for the federal government, and has attempted to limit many fundamental constitutional protections afforded citizens. Given that track record, I would hesitate to consider him a more "pro-freedom" candidate.

 

[wasrjoe]

First , we need to separate the PRESIDENTIAL election from all others, as that's the only one where a third party vote won't mean much, UNTIL the infrastructure is in place, which is where ALL other elections are MOST important. If you want a Party to become prominant, VOTE! Vote them into city council, county commissioner, mayor, State Rep, Senate, all the way up and down. When enough States have Congressmen from a particular Party, it will be recognized and will be on the ballots. Of course , all this means is that for all that to happen , it has to be a truly popular Party with ALOT of people around the Country. So either a grass roots effort has to make it's way around the Country, or else you have to accept that you're adhereing to an insignificant Party.

I do not believe voting in elections in which you are not interested in any viable candidate winning is really all that useful. Obviously, there are times when votes count (mostly local offices) and grassroots movements never start from the presidency down.

What I was getting at is that simply because someone chooses not to vote because they think it is futile does not mean that they no longer have a say in politics. Voting is not the end-all way to be politically active. There are always ways to inform the public, try and persuade people to see your view, try and raise awarness about the inaccuracies in things like the AWB. None of these have to involve voting. Even if someone was politically inactive and all of a sudden develops an interest when something actually effects them - well, I guess we all have to start somewhere.

And, just to remind everyone or inform people who have only read this part of the thread, I am responding to this comment by GeneC:

The you shouldn't have said anything at all after that, 'cause when you just don't vote, you waive your right to complain or discuss anything about it. That's why it's important to vote, if for no other reason.

Which was made about someone who said they do not wish to vote because of the futility.

 

[GeneC]

OK, let's try some grass roots sayings about this. How 'bout, if ya ain't rowin', don't complain 'bout which way the boat's goin.

 

[halvey]

See my tagline.

 

[NIGHTWATCH]

No.


Vote Libertarian. Put Kerry in the White house where he will accomplish nothing. And announce the arrival of a new party that promises both that one term presidencies is all they have to look forward to if they continue to violate our freedoms.

 

[GeneC]

GeneC, you have to ignore me because I ask you to clarify riduculous comments and you cannot. You make inaccurate statements, I ask for you to explain, and since you can't, you just decide to ignore me.


Arguing about the definition of "you" is a little silly don't you think? Kind of reminds me of Bill Clinton arguing over the definition of "is".

Lg , who's arguing? I'm certainly not. That's one problem, you seem to want to keep insisting we're arguing. This is not arguing. Second, what rediculous comment,what inacurate statements? You do your own homework. Geesh, you want me to give you a history lesson and advise on how to decrease you taxes and now a grammar lesson. If I did all that we'd either have to sleep togther or I'd have to claim you as a dependent. Btw, What's silly is that you don't know how to decrease you tax burden and you don't know that "you" is both singular and plural and if someone calls you by name , they mean YOU , but if they make a general statement and say you, they mean anyone. I'm tepmted to just ignore you 'cause no matter what I say , you ignore me, but I giving this one more chance.

 

[GeneC]

"I would encourage those who say that voting for Bush is a support for the 2A to keep in mind that this administration has substantially increased police powers for the federal government, and has attempted to limit many fundamental constitutional protections afforded citizens. Given that track record, I would hesitate to consider him a more "pro-freedom" candidate."



CK, I find this interesting. Surely , looking back at the Klinton/Reno era, the Bush Admin has done NOTHING even close to Waco and Ruby Ridge or the little cuban boy. Surely you can't include the policies that has protected this Country from terrorist attack for the last 3 yrs, while ALL other countries around the world are experiencing ambushes and car bombings, etc at will.

 

[GeneC]

I do not believe voting in elections in which you are not interested in any viable candidate winning is really all that useful. Obviously, there are times when votes count (mostly local offices) and grassroots movements never start from the presidency down.

What I was getting at is that simply because someone chooses not to vote because they think it is futile does not mean that they no longer have a say in politics. Voting is not the end-all way to be politically active. There are always ways to inform the public, try and persuade people to see your view, try and raise awarness about the inaccuracies in things like the AWB. None of these have to involve voting. Even if someone was politically inactive and all of a sudden develops an interest when something actually effects them - well, I guess we all have to start somewhere.

And, just to remind everyone or inform people who have only read this part of the thread, I am responding to this comment by GeneC:

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The you shouldn't have said anything at all after that, 'cause when you just don't vote, you waive your right to complain or discuss anything about it. That's why it's important to vote, if for no other reason.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Which was made about someone who said they do not wish to vote because of the futility.


__________________



Wow, well, there ya go. And what I'm getting at is that if you don't vote, your complaining is what's futile and yes, votiing IS the end all of being politically active. You can do all the 'speaking out" about something , but sooner than later SOMEONE is gonna ask you if you voted. Right then you'll have to either lie and say yes, or say no and right then, they'll say yeah right, goodbye. Tell ya what, how about you go out and ask 100 people if they'd listen to you even if you didn't vote and let's see how many people, over 16 who would.

 

[Lone_Gunman]

Gene C says:

what rediculous comment,what inacurate statements?

First I will assume you mean ridiculous when you say rediculous, and inaccurate when you say inacurate. I bet your English teacher is still having nightmares.


Anyway, here are a few comments that you have made that would fall into to the ridculous and/or inaccurate category (understand this list is not all inclusive):

Cultures have been judged by how well they take care of their elderly and infirmed and all the one's who didn't , were destroyed.

I have asked multiple times to cite an example of a culture that was destroyed because of failure to take care of elderly and infirmed. Thats what this statement implies. You say the countries that didn't do this were destroyed, and I ask, which ones?

when you just don't vote, you waive your right to complain or discuss anything about it

This is not true, the First Amendment gives people to complain about whatever they want, whenever they want, regardless of whether or not they voted.

Paying taxes gives you the right to representation

Again, this is wrong. Paying taxes does not give you the right to representation. Being a citizen gives you that right, whether you pay taxes or not.

the Govt gives tax breaks and if you don't take advantage of them, you don't have a right to complain about high taxes

Again, this is wrong, I have a right to complain, as already pointed out. Yes, its true there are tax breaks, and you better believe I take advantage of them, but the fact is, when all federal, state, local, sales, and other taxes are taken into account, close to 30-40% of many people's money ends up going to the government.

I'm tepmted to just ignore you 'cause no matter what I say , you ignore me, but I giving this one more chance.

Gene, please feel free to put me on your ignore list. I really don't want you to give me another chance. You promised to ignore me once already, but you didn't.

 

[GeneC]

"Gene, please feel free to put me on your ignore list. I really don't want you to give me another chance. You promised to ignore me once already, but you didn't."


__________________



Lgm, so did you , but you didn't either. So, let's agree to ignore.

 

[Lone_Gunman]

I didnt say anything about ignoring you, not that I recall anyway... can you provide a quote to refresh my memory? I've looked over most of my statements in this thread, and I just don't see where I said I was going to ignore you. In fact, I feel almost obligated to dispute the errors you post.

Maybe you have decided to ignore me, if you have thats fine, but if not, how about address any of the statements I listed above?

 

[GeneC]

"I didnt say anything about ignoring you, not that I recall anyway... can you provide a quote to refresh my memory?"


I don't know what else to say or discuss here, as we have no common ground on these issues to work from.


__________________

Let's leave it at that.

 

[GeneC]

Wasrjoe, the gay lovin' pistol totin' semi-closed boarderin' free speechipatin' legalized druggin' harsher DUI lawin' church and state seperatin' voter.


__________________

Explains it all.

 

[Lone_Gunman]

and so you thought that meant I was going to ignore you... ok.


No, you can pretty much count on me spanking you every time you say something that is wrong or just plain dumb.

 

[GeneC]

Ho hum, whatever.

 

[wasrjoe]

Explains it all.

It should. Oh, I forgot to add "pro lifin' (except for extremely early cases such as the morning after pill)", but it wouldn't have really fit with the explanation and all.

 

[wasrjoe]

Wow, well, there ya go. And what I'm getting at is that if you don't vote, your complaining is what's futile and yes, votiing IS the end all of being politically active. You can do all the 'speaking out" about something , but sooner than later SOMEONE is gonna ask you if you voted. Right then you'll have to either lie and say yes, or say no and right then, they'll say yeah right, goodbye. Tell ya what, how about you go out and ask 100 people if they'd listen to you even if you didn't vote and let's see how many people, over 16 who would.

So believing there is not a viable candidate that you would vote for automatically disqualifies someone from holding any worthwhile political opinions, is that what you are saying? And seeing as how a very small percentage of the population votes anyway, I would imagine most would listen to me. They listen to the talking heads on TV, too. But whether or not they would listen to me does not define whether or not I am worth listening to.

 

[fallingblock]

Yup!

Vote Bush instead of third party.

If you value your RKBA.