WACO the rules of engagement

[rock jock]

I remember listening to David Koresh deliver a radio address in the spring of '93 in Texas as part of a deal to surrender if LE would let him get his unedited message out. They held up their part of the bargain; Koresh did not. This was only one of several "deals" that he made only to break later.

He was a lying, deceiving, conniving, manaical murdering pedophile who ordered the building to burn to "save" his people from the torment of falling into the hands of "the Great Harlot", aka the fed govt. He killed his own followers as a final testament to his own ego, i.e., "If I can't have them, no one will." NOTHING the feds did (and they did A LOT wrong) compares to the evil this man inflicted on innocent children.

 

[308win]

there are many problems when attempting an arrest in a public place.

Yes, like unbiased witnesses, damn bothersom meddlers that they are!

 

[AZRickD]

Weren’t the FBI and BATF serving lawful search warrants? Wasn’t the Davidians’ response to fight? ~G. Fink

From David Kopel's book (on my bookshelf), "No More Wacos." The BATF agents lied to the judge by saying that some E2 trigger kits (perfectly legal to put in an AR15) were actually what they called "EZ kits" which BATF agents falsely claimed were used to illegal convert ARs to full auto. The judge, being a typical judge, was too ignorant to confront the F-Troopers with their lie.

The BATF could have arrested Koresh on one of his morning jogs. On one day, when the BATF was inspecting the gunshop which Koresh did much of his business, one of the the employees got on the phone with Koresh telling him that the BATF was there. Koresh told him to relay that "They can come on over here any time they want." When the F-Trooper was informed of the offer, the fine Federal Agent was seen to shush the employee and wave his hands as if to say, "Ix-nay. Don't blow my plan."

Nope, the plan was to go in with a grand show of force. Why? The BATF had suffered several embarrassments from the late 1970s (complete with Congressional findings of misdeeds as well as Michigan Congressman Dingel -a Democrat- coining the infamous reference, "Jack-booted Thugs." As well, a video was released showing the annual BBQ that BATFer would frequent known as the "Good Ol' Boy Round-up" http://elfie.org/~croaker/goodboys.html (a 1995 story detailing the attempt to clean up the image of these Federal Thugs .

They're trying to tone down the racist trappings of the "Good O' Boys Roundup" here in the Tennessee hills east of Chattanooga, where hundreds of federal, state and local law enforcement officers gather every spring to let off steam.

There was a lot to tone down. Gone, for example, are many of the crude signs that once greeted arriving officers, like this one: "****** check point."

The "Good O' Boys Roundup" is organized by agents of the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms and it was held this year on May 18-20.

Of course, since many Branch Davidians who perished in the fire were black (American, Brit, etc) I doubt that any F-Troopers shed a tear.

Yep. All that and the calls to reduce the funding of the agency. With budget hearings coming up, BATF brass decided that they needed a media event to showcase their talents. They invited press to be at the raid, --that's why W:TROE has so much video shot then. Oh, they call sign to begin the raid and have the 80 F-Troopers pile out of the cattle cars to assault the plywood church? "SHOWTIME !! SHOWTIME !! SHOWTIME !!"

The video shows the Huey helicopters loaded with BATF agents swooping down during the raid. As the helicopters flew over the plywood church, the F-Troopers straifed the roof with their machine guns (where the women and children slept). The hostage negotiator tried to lie about it when confronted by the Davidians over the phone. "There were no guns on those helicopters." After he was pressed, several times, he retreated, "Well, there were no guns *mounted* on the helicopters... okay?"

The most "entertaining" thing on the documentary was the scene of the F-Troopers retreating backwards with their hands in the air. Ya see, the F-Troopers ran out of ammunition for their MP5s and Glocks. The Davidians allowed them to depart with their dead and wounded. Some suggest that the Davidians should have taken some hostages, knowing what criminals they were dealing with.

Phoenix's own BATF Agent-in-Charge Marvin Richardson was there on Feb 28th (I sat in with him on a panel and made sure that the others knew what thugs BATF agents were and that they were not to be trusted when they wanted to open "Project Exile" in Phoenix). And after the FBI-HRT showed on the scene with tanks (borrowed from the US armed forces because they (both BATF and FBI) lied about a drug-nexus allowing suspension of portions of Posse Commitatus.

Speaking of rogue federal agent-thugs. Guess who else was there, fresh from his murder of Vicki Weaver at Ruby Ridge as she held her ten-month old daughter, Elisheba? Well, that favorite FBI-HRT sniper, Lon Horiuchi. Lon would love to comment, but he's living in an undisclosed location after Clinton's lackey Attorney General, Janet Reno moved his Idaho indictment to federal court so that she could get the charges quashed. Janet Reno, the person who approved of the assault plan that included pumping hundreds of pounds of flamable CS powder suspended in toxic (and flamable) di-chloroethylene (which no doubt killed several as massive amounts were pumped into the church.)

That metal door that disappeared? One of the Waco Attorneys testified (under oath in Congressional hearings) that the bullet holes went *in* to the metal door -- not out. Yes. That door (it was actually one side of a double door with the other one present, without holes) was gone.

But there's more. After the fire (FBI refused to allow fire truck --for their own safety, of course), they ran bulldozers over the rubble thus destroying as much evidence as possible. Not the actions of an innocent Federal agency, ya think?

The Feds maintained that the flashes of light in the FLIR video were refections of sunlight off of broken glass. FLIR measures infrared -- heat, not visible light, assuming proper calibration. Think of the amount of heat in a rifle shot. Now, go outside and pick up a piece of broken glass which has been sitting in the sun. Get the picture?

Tucson Attorney, David T. Hardy, who wrote the brief for Printz-Mack v US (striking down part of the Brady Law which required Sheriff's to do the work of Bill Clinton) and attorney for some of the Branch Davidians (and the guy who wrote the best history on the Second Amendment I have ever read), has a web page which answers many questions, including the FLIR issue.

http://www.hardylaw.net/flir.html

BTW, the FLIR expert who was to testify that they were gunshots, was found dead in his workshop.

Rick

 

[Gung-Ho]

Ask the girls who were raped by Howell, some who hadn't even reached their teens yet, if they thought there was no violence, or if they were "bothered" by Howell's actions.

Funny how the Texas equivalent of HRS investagated them just a month or two earlier, and found nothing they could act on. This just goes along the lines of demonizing them to all segments.

 

[AZRickD]

Gung-ho is correct. Investigated and cleared. Not that CPS don't screw up. As well, the "child abuse" claim which was brought up after the fire-fight is just typical bureaucrat propaganda.

Also, the Sheriff's Office was permitted to use the shooting range on Davidian property. The Davidians were well known and open in the community.

Rick

 

[DMF]

. . . check out the WACO Holocaust Museum. . .

http://www.public-action.com/SkyWriter/WacoMuseum/

Yep, what a fine, trustworthy, levelheaded group these guys are. Take a look at some of their sponsor links.

regmeister, final conflict, The Committee for Open Discussion of the Holocaust, being some of the links that work and should give you a clue to the type of people who put together that "museum." If you want to believe information that would proudly be sponsored by those groups, that's your choice. I think I'll look for more reliable sources.

 

[DMF]

So you're saying those girls lied about what happened to them?

You think 14 year old Kiri Jewel went before Congress and lied about being raped to help out the government?

 

[Sir Aardvark]

Why couldn't the BATF just arrest David K. when he was in town getting a cheeseburger?.

Instead, they had to use the "Here Comes the Gestapo to Kick Down Your Front Door" trick, which sorta backfired, because everybody knew they were coming anyways.

And to top it all off, they bulldozed everything into the ground while the embers are still smoldering.

It's great when the Gov't. gets their Spin Doctors to portray dead burned children as some sort of criminal conspiracy.

Really now....What's Next?????.............

 

[AZRickD]

I didn't say that. And, for argument's sake, let's say that Koresh did have sex with under-aged girls...

...what was BATF doing there with 80 armed goons, and attack helicopters?

I don't suppose you're going to address any of my points in my last two posts, are you?

Rick

 

[ksnecktieman]

I do not see that it as a relevant fact that we have racist atf agents. I do not see it as a relevant fact that the powers that be may or may not have had a warrant, or multiple warrants. I do not consider that it implies culpability that the davidians resisted. I do not consider it important IF (hard to prove with most witnesses dead, and the others no doubt in fear of similar treatment) Koresh had sex with multiple young females. I do not care if the Davidians had machine guns, or hand grenades in their possesion.
IF Koresh was setting up a situation where he had to be a martyr, I do not think the federal government had to oblige him.

IMHO,,,,,,,, WE The people did this, WE the people, accepted this, WE the people were wrong.

I am sure that we all approve of the phrase "The buck stops here". The problem as I see it, it that we see that sign on the desk of the president of the United States,,, if we ever visualize it.

THAT is not where it belongs, it belongs with each and every one of us, every time we vote, and every time we allow an infringement of our rights.

 

[bamawrx]

Rock Jock said:

The part that really rankles me, though, are folks who know that they are not qualified to offer an opinion, but do so anyway. Typically, these folks have limited or no experience or experience in a tangentially related field, or a lack of proper educational credentials to make them truly experts.

Dr. Edward Allard said:

Dr. Edward Allard, a FLIR inventor and designer, formerly with the Army's Night Vision Laboratory, has given his opinion that these flashes reflect gunfire, from persons outside the building (meaning FBI) directed at persons within the building. He pointed out that item in nature do not heat up and cool down in 1/15 second, let alone do so with repetition. Click here for one of his early affidavits.

 

[R.H. Lee]

Charges, denials, countercharges. Fact is, the BATF and FBI got caught with their pants down and innocent people died as a result. THEY are supposed to be the 'authorities'. The entire episode lies at their doorstep. If Janet Reno had an ounce of integrity, she would have resigned in disgrace.

 

[Sindawe]

You think 14 year old Kiri Jewel went before Congress and lied about being raped to help out the government?

It would not have been the first time that children have lied to help out adults. Remember the Wanachee child molestation scandal? The one that did not happen? Remember the Kuwaiti girl who testified before Congress about the Iraqi troops dragging babies out of incubators and dashing them to the floor? That did not happen either.

The whole sorry event stinks like a week old corpse. The fubar'd execution of the warrants (which IIRC were knock and announce, not dynamic entry warrants), the missing door with the bullet holes, the use of a chemical agent against U.S. Citizens, an agent which had been banned by international treaty for use in warfare against enemy troops, the refusal to permit fire rescue to respond to the scene until the entire structure was fully engulfed in flames, the bulldozing of the smoking ember of a freaking crime scene....

 

[Sir Aardvark]

Hey Ksn..

"I" didn't do anything!, AND "I" am abhorred at what occured at Waco!.

I find it difficult to believe that my gov't could actually do this to my fellow citizens.

People in other parts of the world who do the exact same thing that our gov't did to Koresh's people are called TERRORISTS; here in the United States they get promoted even higher into the FBI's hierarchy for a job well done.

The actions that occured at Waco and Ruby Ridge bring SHAME upon the gov't of this country, and the INSULT that is added by the cover-up does nothing to restore my faith and trust.

 

[R.H. Lee]

Thanks for posting that link, DMF. It's a good reminder of just how dangerous an out of control government is.

 

[rock jock]

Dr. Edward Allard, a FLIR inventor and designer, formerly with the Army's Night Vision Laboratory, has given his opinion that these flashes reflect gunfire, from persons outside the building (meaning FBI) directed at persons within the building. He pointed out that item in nature do not heat up and cool down in 1/15 second, let alone do so with repetition. Click here for one of his early affidavits.

The Post, being somewhat more persistent, mailed out copies of the FLIR tape to a number of experts, of whom a dozen offered opinions. According to Leiby and McGee, four of them "were convinced that they saw bursts on the tape indicative of gunfire going into the compound."

Seeking the definitive opinion, our intrepid reporters took the FLIR tape to the night vision lab at Fort Belvoir. There four experts (employed by the U.S. Government) promptly identified the flashes as sun reflections. They also showed it to Fred Zegel, whom they describe as "one of the top FLIR readers in the world."
According to the Post reporters, "Zegel knows and greatly respects Ed Allard," his former colleague at the night vision lab.

To cut a long story short, after watching the tape in his office, Zegel identified several of the flashes others had called gunfire as such things as reflections and exhaust. Later, however, when he watched the tape with Allard, at the latter's home, "Zegel's position gradually changed."



This is the definitive testimony?? I see multiple opinions from multiple experts. Not what I would exactly term damning evidence.

 

[Gordon Fink]

Fact is, the BATF and FBI got caught with their pants down and innocent people died as a result.… If Janet Reno had an ounce of integrity, she would have resigned in disgrace.

That sounds about right, even though they were after an actual bad guy, and for the record, AG Reno did offer.

~G. Fink

 

[C96]

You don't have to be a genius to commit the perfect crime - Just be in charge
of the investigation. :banghead: :banghead: :banghead:

 

[Rebar]

even though they were after an actual bad guy

Based on what, his conviction in a court of law with a jury of his peers?

Oh, I forgot, they killed him. Guess that automatically makes him guilty of anything the government decides to accuse him of then.

 

[Gordon Fink]

Rebar, I considered using the words “even if” or “though they thought,” but you know what? I think Vernon Howell was a bad guy.

~G. Fink

 

[c_yeager]

So, are some of you saying that the Dividians were not a cult, and were not a bunch of "kooks" as someone put it?

I certainly agree that they were nutty. However, not only do we have a moral obligation to tollerate nuttiness, they have a constitutional right to engage in it. Certainly if they commited actual crimes in the persuit of this belief they should be brought to justice, burning people alive is a type of "justice" that we abandoned a long time ago, for good reason.

 

[Rebar]

I think Vernon Howell was a bad guy.

Again, based on what? Allegations and hearsay after the fact of a mass murder and the resulting coverup? They accused him of everything short of being a Hitler clone, none of which has ever been proven.

What is a fact, is that the government had countless opportunites to arrest and/or question him peacefully.

 

[Tinker]

DMF,

"In the end we know that the people at Ranch Apocalypse were tipped off, and decided to attack the agents."

Another of the most damning portions of the Waco ROE film was the initial 911 call from Davidians during the raid. If you had been "tipped off" and were planning the "Apocalypse battle with the Feds" then why in the world would you call the cops for help?

Another damning clip about this point was the lady who was shot in the hand as she was breast feeding her baby near the front door. I'm sure she was thinking: "Well, Dave says we're going to have a fire fight with some federal invaders in a few minutes. Think I'll nurse my litttle one right here at ground zero while the boys are shooting it up."

Rock Jock,

It doesn't take a Phd. to smell horse$hit.

 

[Gung-Ho]

It doesn't take a Phd. to smell horse$hit.

Well said.

 

[El Rojo]

Another important point is that if the Branch Davidians were truly ready to take on the ATF, why wait for them to get out of their cattle cars before you open up on them? Why not hose them in their vehicles right before they get out? Maybe they weren't intending to shoot the agents as they served the warrant? Nah, they were an evil cult, so they had it coming.

A lot of what I have watched about the entire debacle was reaching for the dark. Like the flame throwing tank that was on what her names video. If you just watch it carefully, you can clearly see that is no flame, but a bright piece of the building reflecting in the sun.

However, the government most certainly took big chunks of the building out with their tanks and certainly pumped a lot of gas into a building full of children with no real evidence of child abuse as they claimed in order to justify their final raid. They also used incidenary type gas grenades, which they lied about for 6 years. Why would they do that?

The original warrant wasn't served very well either.

The whole thing stinks. Was there a huge government conspiracy to begin with? I don't think so. Did the ATF screw up their warrant? Yes they did. You can say they didn't have any right to fire on the agents, but you weren't there so you really don't know what happened. We still don't know who fired first. What we do know is we have video of agents pumping a lot of lead into a building with very little return fire dinging off of them or their vehicles. Ok, search warrant gone bad.

Then you have a 51 day siege where the occupants were treated like an opposing army. Harrased day and night and attacked with pyscological warfare. Very interesting. Then in the end the FBI uses military equipment to ram the building and knock holes into it and starts pumping six hours worth of CS gas into a building with children inside. The building starts on fire, no one rushes out, and it burns to the ground. You can see tanks pushing debris into the fire and there are agents walking about and riding on top of tanks with no apparant concern for getting shot, yet the fire trucks are held back in order to protect the firemen.

Waco was a huge screwup. No one should be able to deny that. Our government screwed up bad. The good news is we haven't had any raids like that since. You had the Freeman in 1996, but the government had learned its lesson and let them be. What do you know, eventually they came out peacefully. Imagine that.