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WAKE UP AGAIN

Discussion in 'Legal' started by rojoko, Jan 17, 2007.

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  1. rojoko

    rojoko member

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    Gentlemen,

    I’m going to try this again since I’m new to THR and the format is somewhat problematical for me at this point.

    For over 30 years I’ve not only watched the political side of the shooting world, I also worked to defend the 2nd, including offering the forums for gun related and political discussions that ran for over 10 years before there was the internet and the related internet SIGs. There was both technical discussion area as well as the political discussion area. These ran as a fair cost all to often that came out of my pocket. (ask Vern, he was using them as well as Ernie Packett (sp?)). In late 85, early 86 I was the one that suggested that Wayne LaPierre be replaced by someone that understood and could present a better case in the public light, Charlton Heston. We need this again more then ever, Wayne LaPierre is NOT an effective public speaker and does more damage then he helps.

    And now, we’re in worse shape then ever, and what bothers me most is the fact that the pro gun discussions haven’t changed in 20-25 years. The pro 2nd side has yet to see some of the worst problems we face, let alone the NRA which seems to be stuck in the same mode they’ve had for 25 years now. They do not see crucial issues to saving the 2nd amendment (and do not take this for granted because there are way to many liberals and democrats that want the 2nd removed/gone – and once that goes, so goes the 1st amendment).

    The American public doesn’t even realize the extent to which they get “conditioned”. They have been watching programs and films that have conditioned the younger generations that guns are bad. Even the news no longer even pretends to present the news, it’s all about entertainment and ratings. And in the major cities when anyone does anything with a firearms, they swarm all over it and home the point that guns are bad!.

    Even a month or so ago, when one of the news rags on TV ran the story of a gentleman that protected himself from a deranged/mentally unstable individual, he was convicted because the jurors were upset that he had used Hollowpoints in his Colt 10mm to defend himself, instead of using something “less likely to kill someone”. Now these people had no bloody clue what self defense means, what being attacked by a deranged individual (and it was well proven, even in court) can mean. This guy was pristine, well liked, family man, good reputation, the whole 9 yards. What does he and his family have now? A ruined life. They’ll spend every cent on the court battle… they’ll loose their house, friends ,etc etc etc, just because the jurors has no clue what self defense really means, anymore then they understand what realistic self defense is. All they know is Hollowpoints and guns are bad!

    Now, does the NRA do anything about this? No. DO they understand the problem, No. I can go on here, but what the NRA really needs is to change their ways, radically and they need someone that understands the media… me. I’ve been working in it for 20 years now and I understand it (I grew up in and around the media on top of working in it), including at many years at 2 of the big 3. I have a plan, but no, I’m not going to go through the entire problem in public, because I can do it better. The NRA at least ought to bring me on board as a consultant, to change what they’re doing. To fix the worst of their problems including their public presence and pulic perception of Firearms and the shooting community.

    To revive some of the old programs that were incredibly effective in getting new members, including getting kids interested in proper shooting programs while educating them with better gun handling education, etc etc etc. Educating parents to keep guns locked up. But most of all, to come up with a practical program for making sure that the 2nd lasts more then the next 20-30years. Because as the shooting community shrinks (and it is radically), the NRA’s ability to deal with trying to save the 2nd will diminish. Don't misunderstand me, I do not take anything away from those folks that are getting new people interested in shooting, but please do so responsibly!

    Why me? Because I’ve had better ideas then anything else I’ve seen in the past 30 years and I understand how the media works and can be countered most importantly of all. This is far more crucial then “I had an argument with a liberal the other day” BS… what a waste of time!

    Most of all, for over tens years of work and thousands upon thousands of dollars out my my pocket, I rarely got a thank you, instead I regularly got death threats because I would not allow discussion of illegal issues. I knew that both the NRA and the ATF were reading the discussion areas. This time, I’d like a return for my work after 30 years of effort, since most people can’t be bothered to even say thanks.

    More to come.
     
  2. Juna

    Juna Member

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    Thanks for whatever work you've done to protect our IIA rights. I'm also trying, though I'm relatively new to the cause. I have two F- rated liberal senators, one of whom doesn't even respond to my letters. The task can be daunting at times, but I'll keep at it.

    I, too, saw that special on the guy who got convicted b/c of the JHP ammo. His lawyer sucked and should have countered about the safety of JHP ammo, the fact that it's less likely to go out the other side & kill an innocent bystander, etc. He should have educated that ignorant, media-brainwashed jury. They used that as the reason to convict him when you listened to the jurors explain their thoughts. It's ignorance, media brainwashing, and laziness on the part of the majority of firearm owners in this country that have led to the current anti-gun sentiment among the general population. Our legal system also contributes in allowing people to blame inanimate objects for human actions and in not allowing the IIA issues to go to the Supreme Court so that they can finally uphold the Second Amendment officially and shut the antis up a bit.

    Keep fighting the good fight, and I'll be there with you. I agree that we need to evolve and stay proactive to combat the media. Using the internet is a good start since they don't control it. But TV is difficult to spread the word on b/c of the liberal media bias.
     
  3. Vern Humphrey

    Vern Humphrey Member

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    Bob is right -- it's a whole new ballgame now, and the NRA must rapidly adapt and improve if we are to survive.
     
  4. 1911Tuner

    1911Tuner Moderator Emeritus

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    Hollowpoints

    rojoko wrote/reported:

    >Even a month or so ago, when one of the news rags on TV ran the story of a gentleman that protected himself from a deranged/mentally unstable individual, he was convicted because the jurors were upset that he had used Hollowpoints in his Colt 10mm to defend himself, instead of using something “less likely to kill someone”.<
    *************

    But yet, if you try to use a logical argument that hollowpoints can and do sway juries...as well as guns with deactivated safety devices, 3-pound trigger jobs...or any modification that wasn't on the gun as part of the manufacturer's as-sold package...they flame away and demand to see
    documentation and proof that it was a deciding factor, stating loudly that
    "It doesn't matter! If the shoot is justifiable, it's justifiable...even if the shooter/defender used AP/HE ammo."

    Ladies and gentlemen...It does matter. It will be introduced and it will be a
    strike against you. Skeptical people...Here is your proof. Heed the warning.

    I fervently hope that the gentleman who has had his life turned upside down by this travesty prevails in his appeal...and I hope that he has recourse against the prosecutor and the state for financial recompense...because it SHOULDN'T matter. The only question should be whether or not he was legally and morally justified in pulling the trigger.

    As for me...I will continue to carry hardball, as I have done for these many years.
     
  5. thirty-thirty

    thirty-thirty Member

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    The FIRST thing the NRA needs to do is get rid of Wayne LaPierre and flush the President and Vice President. That would be a good starting point. The NRA was a great organization in the 90's. I doubt it can be fixed. It would not surprize me if the NRA was staffed by one-worlders pretending to be pro-gun.
     
  6. rojoko

    rojoko member

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    Mr 1911 tuner

    You miss the point badly (and so proving my point)....

    The American public has been conditioned.... the are responding the way they're supposed to. Does the NRA reccognise this problem? No and frankly they are the only organization that has the capacity to deal with it... well they do at the moment, this to shall change if they don't get their act together and wise up...

    Folks we're outgunned at the moment.. and it's far worse then any of you immagine. We need to completely redo the whole Pro2nd position, not including using the media to re-condition America that we are a land of Liberty and that guns ARE NOT BAD... and that according to our fore fathers we have a right to keep and defend outselves..

    WAKE UP!!!

    This effort will take a lot of work, a lot of WISDOM and some serious resources.
     
  7. rojoko

    rojoko member

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    Vern,

    It's not that simple!! The NRA needs to regen their old BB gun program at the local parks in the cities, they need people to get out and chat up the public, they need to do a whole hell of a lot of things to get the Americam public confortable with firearms...

    No one remembers Alvin York, No one remembers or even know who Carlos Hathcock is... etc etc etc etc...

    Now if we had someone in the right places... we can educate the american public and even gently condition them back to reality... guns are no different then anything else.. and it's our RIGHT to have them... this includes working with the newpeople.. the most dangerous of the lot! But I can't do it for free this time around... sorry.
     
  8. Juna

    Juna Member

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    How do we, as ordinary citizens, use the media to spread the truth? How can you get through to the hard-core anti-gun media of today? Do you have any specific suggestions? I'm all ears for anything that you think will help our cause and why (specific suggestions, not generalizations).
     
  9. ctdonath

    ctdonath Member

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    A few random thoughts:

    Get off the political hysteria. Democrats are on the whole bad for RKBA, but they're not quite Satan incarnate. Republicans haven't been all that much better - not actively destroying RKBA, but barely tolerating the status quo.

    Get 922(o) repealed. Yes, we have a right to machineguns - get that right restored. I want my M4; why won't the NRA help?

    Recognize silencers as a health issue. Apparently AAC was ejected from the NRA convention and the company prez had his life membership refunded - for selling silencers. My left ear is bothering me right now - the one damaged because for a moment I forgot hearing protection in a situation where, if silencers weren't borderline illegal, every last gun would have had one.

    Promote firearms as NORMAL. Get classes & leagues into schools.

    Lose the hysteria.
     
  10. rojoko

    rojoko member

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    Juna,

    There's a simple answer. You take someone that has worked in the industry for the past 20 years (and even grew up in it) and you get the NRA to bring hm onboard. THey take a look at the resources available and you start to work up a viable plan. Once in place it's a questions of accessing certain people and putting programs into place.

    On a simplier level, why don't we have "The American Sportsman" on the air anymore?? It was a supperb took for letting the American public see that guns aren't bad and even movie starts went out hunting or shooting or shotgunning from time to time, and that IS important since American is so star crazed....

    Feel free to ask, but please understand that I will not lay the whole thing out in public this time around.

    But also understand that it's not to late, if we get started in the not to distant future. This is imperitive!! We have 20 years of conditioing to undo and while it won't be easy, it is possible!
     
  11. rojoko

    rojoko member

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    CTDONATH,

    If you don't reccognize the fact of how bad things really are, then perhaps we are lost. I do not post hysteria, I'm a realist... and after watching this thing for 30 years, I know how bad it is, and how little time the 2nd ammendment will last in this country... before you know it, it will be gone. There are several generations coming along that are now voting or will be able to vote before long. All of which will support the removal of our ability to keep firearms.

    And yes, I've had a class III, I know all about having and shooting machineguns. But it's a moot point, because ALL firearms will go.. not just the squirt guns.... well maybe not all, I can see us being stuck with double barreled shotguns the way the Brits are. But no handguns, no decent semi auto's.. nothing....

    And BTW it's called foresight... the ability to look ahead after analysising what I've seen over the years.
     
  12. rojoko

    rojoko member

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    Thirty thrity,

    The only time the NRA was decent was when they had the option to address the public in a fashion that didn't alienate them... which actually was sa very short period of time....

    But as the shooting community continues to shrink, how does the NRA expect to survive??

    See what I mean?? There are several generations that have been brought up on the media for the last 20 to 30 years now... and most of them are just fine with the idea that we might not be able to have firearms in the future...

    Time to change the NRA... NOW! Not later... because they're the only ordanization that has the resources to win the fight... but it's all about what the NRA wants... at least the bearucatic heads of the NRA want.. and they simply do NOT see the issues with any realistic perception....
     
  13. rojoko

    rojoko member

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    Juna, sorry just saw the first post..

    The strongest point we can make right now, is to take on the NRA.. they have to replace LaPierre.. they have to change the "business as usual" mentality, it hasn't worked and it won't... and it shouldn't be hard, considering the way most folks seem to feel about it. I've got a list of people that would make a decent replacement for LaPierre if they can be talked into doing it. People LIKE Heston that are comfortable in the public light and can have a live/spontanious conversation without stumbling all over themselves the way LaPierre does. Heston was supperb for that! and charming... it was unaviodable.. and it showed on air!

    More over... the NRA has the resources... and if we could gain access to what is really there, it's a question of laying out a program(s) - carefully to use the resources not only to fight the fight, but undo the damage that's been done so far.. the point has to be made (and made continously forever) that guns are no different then knives, cars, baseball bats (or anything that can be used to kill) and that in real life they have a use (self defense) they can be enjoyed (hunting, paper punching, shotgunning, etc) and that a LOT of people have them and use them without "adverse" effect...

    More over, there are ways to get to "the people" that doesn't even entail putting another show on the air (expensive!)...

    But the NRA had to change and has to change NOW!! Most of all, they need people like me.
     
  14. pax

    pax Member

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    So, rojoko, I'm having a hard time figuring out exactly what you want everyone to do after reading your posts.

    Are you running for the NRA board or something? If so, what's your name & could you post a resume?

    Are you wanting us to lobby the NRA to hire you as a consultant?

    What? :confused:

    pax
     
  15. ForeverArmed

    ForeverArmed member

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    Rojoko, thank you for your efforts on behalf of the RKBA. You deserve an "attaboy."

    I agree that the NRA is not doing nearly enough. This has come up a few times here recently. I'd like to see them (and the GOA, etc.) go on the offensive and start lobbying hard for the repeal of the laws on the books.

    I like ctdonath's suggestions. While I do not believe that machine guns are necessary to defend freedom (though semi-autos certainly are), gun owners' complacency regarding the 1986 ban sends the wrong message. It's probably the single most unconstitutional gun law on the books. I can live with registration and background checks for now, but an absolute ban should not be accepted.

    Better arguments need to be made than most out there I've seen. "Liberal" types, while often hostile to gun ownership, are often much more protective of the rest of the Bill of Rights. We need to emphasize to them that no one has ANY rights without weapons to back those rights up. I have personally converted more than one anti by driving this point home.

    I think Oleg Volk's site makes the kind of strong arguments that the NRA should emphasize:

    http://www.a-human-right.com/1919-2_s.jpg
     
  16. rojoko

    rojoko member

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    Pax,

    LOLOL... sorry had so much to say, it gets hard trying to get what I can posted... just want to be hired as a consultant. do NOT want to run for the board, because I do not want to get caught up in the Bureaucracy... I've known a couple of people that got elected.. and I watched what it did to them or at least what they wanted to accomplish....

    It's really even time for a "revolt" so to speak.. to let the NRA know that either it changes or we stop joining.... period. No members, no money. Because what they're doing is not effective, nor do they even see the extent of the issue (yada yada yada.....)

    Please feel free and I am available email if you'd like.. I will not post my resume because I still have to make a living like everyone else and this would be "frowned" upon...

    And just for general interest.. everyone would really be supprised at the extent of good conservative people working in the industry.... but the sad fact is the liberal management, inclding a lot of people that support politicians like Uuuurp Clinton/Gore/Kerry, etc. :banghead:
     
  17. rojoko

    rojoko member

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    Foreverarmed...

    Now this is not said to insult you in any way.... but you also miss the point...

    Every single form of offensive and defensive actions to date has only marginally been effective... because it's missed a major root of the problem, even the true degree of the problems we face...

    You see I've seen most of these discussions and arguments, etc going on the same old same old for over 20 years now... and we're in worse shape!!!

    Again, this country has been conditioned and will continue to be conditioned as long as it watch
    es TV, the News (except Fox Cable) and even Movies. The public perception is moving away from even allowing the options for Americans to own and keep firearms, let alone machinguns.

    No matter what the NRA does on it's current level or even as you've suggested.. we'll all loose... the trend cannot turn around unless there is a significant change in the way things are addressed.

    Now, thank you for the attaboy.. I appreciate it. But I've still got a good run in me and I'd really like to see things turn around.

    There's so much to do, and so much that's really being missed by everyone not just the NRA and how screwed up it is.. But if I could be given a budget, even a moderate one to start... I could come up with several programs that will start to undo what's been going on for all these years.... it's so easy once you've seen it (well working in the biz helps)...

    I'll be here.. not everday.. but I'll be here.
     
  18. DHard3006

    DHard3006 member

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    The NRA has changed. The NRA has compromised to appease so called right to bear arms people that think along the same lines as gun hater Sarah Brady.

    The NRA should change back to the no compromise stand and tell the gun haters to go have sex with themselves.

    Gun haters are attacking the right to bear arms under the guise of claiming to be gun owners. This is nothing new people have always done this.
    The things these so called gun owners spew are the very same thing gun hater Sarah Brady spews.
    Lock up your guns? Gee I grew up in a home where firearms were dangling from the walls or over the fireplace. Not to forget that dang oak gun cabinet with the glass doors and no lock. Ammo was never far from these firearms. I never ran out and shot up a school.

    Oh crap now we get a person used this type of ammo to defend themselves and they got sent to prison.
    I can recall when I was a youngster and just got into reloading ammo. The constant rant around the ole gun hang outs were if you use your reloads to defend yourself you would be in trouble. I cannot find one legal case to defend this bs lie.
    When I was hunting all of my reloads were reloaded to match factory ammo specs. It was just cheaper and more enjoyable for me to load my own ammo then purchase new factory ammo.
    Now that I just shoot NFA type firearms I reload my ammo to gi specs.
    I always figured if I was using my reloads for self defense and they were loaded to factory specs there would be no problem. But you still would get that chant that you would be in trouble is you used them.
    Then I checked into just what happens when a gun is used to defend a person. The gun is taken by the police and the ammo is tested if it appears to be reloads.
    All of the bs about reloads or ammo like cop killer bullets was just a gun hater in a gun owners clothing spewing crap.

    I could careless if my neighbor has a artillery piece, ge mini gun, or air to air missile in his backyard, as long as he does not use it to commit a crime who cares?

    I could careless if the ATF reads this forum. No one is talking about committing a crime. And if you do you deserve to get your butt arrested.

    The business as usual bs? The NRA needs to get back the to business as usual of not compromising on a right. You know that ole shall not infringe chant.
     
  19. rojoko

    rojoko member

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    Dhard3006

    Hothing personal but thank you for proving my point...

    Same old same old same old and you miss the main point netirely.. because you've gone straight into a rant mode.. nothing wrong with that, but in this case you completely miss the point.... While we loose our rights and continue to loose our rights. This is just another example of "I got into an argument with a liberal, etc etc" thread.

    Youhave no conception of the real problems we face as shooters.

    The old NRA "hard stance" or whatever will have no effect on what's going on anymore then what they're currently doing. You can't beat numbers and with the shooting communtiy shrinking daily... WE WILL LOOSE! The foremost problem we face has nothing to do with comprimises.. has nothing to do with what the NRA has done or not done. You miss the point competely and it's a good indication of why we will loose.

    The old NRA stance will also do nothing buy alienate even more people. You need to expand your thinking.. not close it off. Your argument is about 100% off the real problems we face, just like telling us that the machinegunners have rights too!!

    The major population centers in the US have the most important voting blocks in this country. Most people in these cities watch a LOT of TV, Cable, movies whatever... but everytime they do.. they're being programmed/conditioned and it's working well... because in polls of young people today, guns are bad.. in most responses. Now with this kind of mentaility in the population centers... how is any pro 2nd candiate going to be elected? More over, what does the NRA have to do with this? Nothing... and they should!! They like you, have such an extreme case of tunnel vision, can't see the forrest for the trees. Again, this is not posted or meant personally.. but you miss the point. The Conservative party is no longer supporting the shooting community and the last time a Pro 2nd candiate ran out here, he got killed!
     
  20. greener

    greener Member

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    Sounds like the fellow had a lousy defense attorney. A FMJ is ok but an HP is "more likely to kill?" Probably, but not by much. It was self-defense.

    The anti-gunners are winning by gradualism and apathy among the pro-gunners. I hear the NRA talk about those points, but don't see what they are doing, or what the pro-gun crowd is doing. For some, it's a case of it's alright to crack down on X, but cause I don't use them. For example, I don't hunt, so I have very little interest in hunting long guns or shot guns. If I were apathetic, then it would be ok to tighten down on those. They get that, and they go after the next duckpin. I was one of the apathetic types. I got a bit tired of what I considered the NRA's knee-jerk response and dropped out. I also dropped out of shooting. When I awoke from my nap, the terrain had changed significantly.

    You have to oppose any tightening of gun laws, not just those those that affect you. I'm not a hunter, but I darn sure now will speak up in support of hunting and hunter's rights. It's time the "I only shoot during deer season" crowd realizes that after a while, they are going to be hunting Bambi with a camera.

    If the NRA isn't doing what you think should be done, let them know, and support the local organizations that do. Also, take a few minutes to write your representatives. Don't sit back and wait for the NRA.
     
  21. longeyes

    longeyes member

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    You are tilting at windmills, sir. The "shooting community" is shrinking because prosperity has, for most Americans, turned their swords into ploughshares. The primal martial impulse has either been blunted or converted into fantasy. What we have left is a parody of the old warrior culture in today's thugs and gangbangers, plus what appears to be a relatively modest contingent of rational, civic-minded people who not only understand what's behind the Second Amendment but our other essential Rights.

    Recasting the message of the NRA is unlikely to be able to overturn decades of aggressive propaganda by the assembled forces of America's elites, who are interested, above all, in docile, contented, dependent, passive consumers.

    The most plausible catalyst for the change you desire is, alas, catastrophe: spreading terrorism, natural disasters like Katrina, or the collapse of law and order. America used to be a wild place; it is far from unlikely that it will become so again. Whether that is really a second "Golden Age" of armed self-reliance or just an every-man-for-himself nightmare remains to be seen.
     
  22. Kali Endgame

    Kali Endgame member

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    In a constant state of confusion.
    Besides reading your well thought out rant, what would you have us do? I write my legislaters(sp) and inform them of my dissatisfaction regarding proposed bills/laws. I don't picket Albertsons demanding to have the rights the Founding Fathers provided for us in the Constitution reinstated. I also don't sit here and keyboard commando life.

    What is it you want from us RKBA Pro 2A citizens?
     
  23. 1911Tuner

    1911Tuner Moderator Emeritus

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    Prosperity

    Quote:

    > The "shooting community" is shrinking because prosperity has, for most Americans, turned their swords into ploughshares.<

    And that's where the danger lies. History has shown that those who beat their swords into plowshares usually wind up doing the plowing for those who don't. (I forget who said that...but I wish it'd been me.)
     
  24. rojoko

    rojoko member

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    Longeyes,

    You’re right, I’ve been tilting at the same windmills for well over 20-25 years almost as a futile gesture because if there’s one thing I see constantly, it’s the refusal of the shooting community to see past the obvious… they can’t. Stuck in the same same mode now for as long as I’ve been watching..

    Are we really more prosperous, no.. not really, and no I’m not going to get started talking about economics because I’d be off topic. But there are serious ramifications about what’s going on in this country on that level. Yes, we do find things out that are scary.
    However back to the subject and in reality, it has nothing to do with prosperity, it has everything to do with “convenience, lack of motivation, what can I do?, etc etc etc. In other words, if it’s not something easy to deal with (as in more then posting online), it ain’t gonna happen. Because people are basically more lazy then ever and they simply don’t want to be bothered.. come hell of high water. A lot of them want to do what convenient or interesting to them.. including yes.. the epic “turning on the boob tube”.

    What I plan has nothing and everything to do with those years of propaganda, because if done right, it’s not even noticed. When it happened, how many people really spotting all the anti NRA stuff in the Lethal weapons pictures (no need to tell us, be honest with yourselves). I was shocked at how many people hadn’t even noticed. You don’t understand how the media works (nothing personal), even to the point of being so subtle that it’s almost invisible.

    And no, let’s deal with the here and now, I do not want to start speculating on things that may or may not happen (even though I have a very clear opinion on that one)…

    The NRA still has the resources to change and deal with the damage. However they like most people in the shooting community has no clue how to deal with it. That’s why they need a media consultant at minimum.

    Trust me hoss, there are ways to fix it… but time is growing short.. and BTW one of the major factors of the shrinking community is the fact that the older generations are simply passing away. In the past couple of years, we’ve lost Cooper and at least 4 of the old IPSC’ers and sometimes Gunsite instructors I knew.. and one superb .45 smith (Ries), not to mention a lot of others…

    I’ll be here if you’d like to continue. Or just tell Vern to email me.. I do have to work!
     
  25. JohnL2

    JohnL2 Member

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    That would be the best first policy. You would have better luck trying to get this going in the mid-west. Maybe at some of the private schools on the coasts. Where people still have some common sense.
    But the public schools? Good Lord. Try to get a piece of that committee camel.
     
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