WAKE UP AGAIN

[Vern Humphrey]

There are about 600 high schools in the US that have Junior ROTC. This falls under Cadet Command at TRADOC. I'd think one place to start would be to foster air rifle competition amongst JROTC units.

 

[ctdonath]

I do not post hysteria

I wasn't talking about you specifically (though you did write a long and energetic lead post, wherein you completely neglected to indicate your point (which Pax had to call out)).

I was talking about the NRA in general. Yes, I agree we could lose RKBA entirely in short order without energetic vigilance & defense. Problem is, the NRA tends to word these issues in terms & formatting which make even my eyes glaze over (and I'm mulling over a SCOTUS case). The hysteria conveyed in mailings, ads, etc. really does make the NRA look like an extremist group. "Give us assault weapons or the nation will descend into rank tyranny" may be true, but few believe it.

NRA needs to get back to making lawful firearms use part of peoples' lives. Repelling tyrants is a legitimate use, but getting little Johnny medals on the town's rimfire team will mean more to the soccer moms.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

I think the point is that we cannot rely on the old "business as usual" from the NRA anymore. New, energetic and far-seeing leadership is needed. We need another Charleton Heston -- and we need to put him in charge.

NRA needs to get back to making lawful firearms use part of peoples' lives. Repelling tyrants is a legitimate use, but getting little Johnny medals on the town's rimfire team will mean more to the soccer moms.

Amen!

 

[rojoko]

Greener,

Yes we're loosing because the Pro side isn't doing enough, but even more so, most of the people even interested can't see the full extent of the problems involved. The worst of course, the NRA. They're stuck in a typical Washington DC Bureaucracy mode and they can't be bothered. They need some fresh bloos int here with some serious ideas of how to turn things around, let alone DO SOMETHING!!

It's not just a question of opposing laws.. the American public as a whole has to understand several things and in turn be counter conditioned to what they've been doing for all these years.

1) If the 2nd ammendment gets comprimised, the 1st ammendment is next!
2) Gun are NOT bad, they are no diffierent from a car, or a knife, bat, etc etc
3) Guns are a major source of pleasure/enjoyment.. people enjoy paper punching, hunting, shotgunning, etc etc etc.. try it! You don't have to be bloodthirsty to enjoy..
4) Get someone that knows how to deal with the media involved... and knows the "talent" pool to get someone to replace Heston.. because LaPieeree is a DISASTER, and has been for years.. he's doing us a LOT OF DAMAGE!!
and so on and so on...

BUt most of all, time to start writing the NRA and get them to bring people in that not only see the full extent of the fight, but get them to change the way they approach the problem. because at this stage of the game, the NRA is almost useless... and even worse, counter productive!

 

[rojoko]

Kali,

simple:
1) interoduce new people to shooting, do so carefully and responsibly.
2) Write the NRA, tell them it's time for a change because after 25-30 years now we're in worse shape then ever. Time to bring some new blood in, especially people that understand the media!
3) locally, organize.. if only to organize oposition to the local anti gun laws. LET THE LOCAL POLITCO'S KNOW THAT THERE" AN ACTIVE PRO GUN VOTING BLOCK!! they will start to pay attention to it!!
4) Write nastygrams to your local stations about all the inane stories they run about "Crazies" with guns.. you know the type, that means anyone fond with more then one box of ammo.. He's a "Snipe" or that person is a "Crazy" or whatever... TV stations DO READ THEr MAIL!! if they get enough mail about what they're doing... they WILL change (at least most of the time).

Want more? Let me know... but most of all, I should be on a plane to Washington to get to work making changes in the way the NRA is doing things!

 

[rojoko]

1911tuner

Worst then plowing etc....

Is the fact that in 20-30 years (or perhaps a few more), there won't be a shooting community.. because unless things change and NOW, there isn't going to be one...

At best, America will end up much like the UK, where all there's going to be is double barreled shotguns... no handguns, no semi auto's and darn few if any rifles....

Got to remember, ALL the major Democrats in the past 4 admin want guns GONE!! And the repulicans are damn near as bad these days...

Unless things change... there will be NO THR, No NRA, NO shooting worth a damn and there sure as hell won't be any machingeguns! (and yes, I used to have a class III).

Time to start writing nastygrams to the NRA, instead of debating endlessly without productive ends.

 

[rojoko]

One more thing, if something does not change soon... there will be no more firearms in 20 to 30 years, mark my words.. Calif is the test bed of America and what we're going through will happen in the rest of the country..

More over, I used to think there might be enough motivated people to start a civil war if that ever happened or was even tried. I no longer think so, because it would be to inconvenient... to much like work!

SO what it'll be will be: Damn! There goes the guns, oh well let's see what's on TV, or at the movies or on the Internet... and our forefathers will be turning over in their graves. Because the Bill of Rights will cease to exist once the 2nd is gone. Read your history.. read our fore fathers they've said it more then once: Once the 2nd is gone, so goes the 1st....

Time to make a change folks.. It's your Liberties too!

 

[Vern Humphrey]

1) If the 2nd ammendment gets comprimised, the 1st ammendment is next!
2) Gun are NOT bad, they are no diffierent from a car, or a knife, bat, etc etc
3) Guns are a major source of pleasure/enjoyment.. people enjoy paper punching, hunting, shotgunning, etc etc etc.. try it! You don't have to be bloodthirsty to enjoy..
4) Get someone that knows how to deal with the media involved... and knows the "talent" pool to get someone to replace Heston..

Points 1 and 4 are the keys here. The First Amendment is already on the block. Pelosi has introduced a bill that would make it illegal for us to have this discussion -- we'd all have to file as 'lobbiests' and be drowned in paperwork.

So we have to do something. Note the word "we" in the previous sentence -- that's us. Our future (and the future of America and freedom) is in our hands. We can no longer afford to be couch potatoes, to sit and complain and do nothing. We have to reform the NRA -- and that starts with finding the right man to head it up.

 

[1911Tuner]

Illegal Discussions

Vern reported:

> Pelosi has introduced a bill that would make it illegal for us to have this discussion.<
***********

Vern...It just dawned on me that when Americans can be arrested and prosecuted for what they say...short of threatening the life of an elected official...that may come closer to sparking a second revolution than even the undermining of the RKBA. Americans have been speaking their minds for too long to tolerate being told that they now have to keep their political comments to themselves.

These are dark and dangerous times that we're entering. The events that follow in the next 3-4 years can potentially change the shape of America as we know it...or at least as we used to know it. Freedom and liberty aren't lost in one swing of the axe. They're lost through slowly bleeding out from a thousand tiny cuts...and the surgery has been in progress for several decades. Can anyone envision "Moscow on the Beltway?" Looks like it may be coming.

You're right. If we don't do it, the next generation will be so well indoctrinated that it won't get done.

 

[Thin Black Line]

Even a month or so ago, when one of the news rags on TV ran the story of a gentleman that protected himself from a deranged/mentally unstable individual, he was convicted because the jurors were upset that he had used Hollowpoints in his Colt 10mm to defend himself, instead of using something “less likely to kill someone”. Now these people had no bloody clue what self defense means, what being attacked by a deranged individual (and it was well proven, even in court) can mean. This guy was pristine, well liked, family man, good reputation, the whole 9 yards. What does he and his family have now? A ruined life. They’ll spend every cent on the court battle… they’ll loose their house, friends ,etc etc etc, just because the jurors has no clue what self defense really means, anymore then they understand what realistic self defense is. All they know is Hollowpoints and guns are bad!

There was a time when the local court and the local jury meant something.
They might have common sense. Now they are commoners....serfs....both
in thought and practice.

What is serfdom?:

Serfdom is the economic status of peasants under feudalism, specifically in the manorial economic system (also known as seigneurialism) and is a condition of bondage or modified slavery. Serfdom is the forced labour of serfs, on the fields of land owners, in return for protection and the right to work on their leased fields. Serfdom involved work not only on fields, but various agricultural-related works, like forestry, transportation (both land and river-based), work in craft and even in manufactures.
....
The serfs had a feudal contract much in the same fashion as a baron or a knight. A serf's feudal contract was that, in return for protection, he would reside upon and work a parcel of land held by his lord.

The period rationale was that a serf "worked for all", while a knight or baron "fought for all" and a churchman "prayed for all." Thus everyone had his place. The serf worked harder than all others, and was the worst fed, but at least he had his place and, unlike in slavery, there was a degree of reciprocity in the feudal contract.

How did we go back down the road to serfdom?:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Road_to_Serfdom

Hayek argued that countries such as the Soviet Union and Nazi Germany had already gone down the "road to serfdom", and that various democratic nations are being led down the same road. In The Road to Serfdom he wrote: "The principle that the end justifies the means is in individualist ethics regarded as the denial of all morals. In collectivist ethics it becomes necessarily the supreme rule."

The flipside is that the individual is not justified in doing anything by any
means unless approved and within the narrow thinking of the socialist
collective. You go up against the rest of the serfs themselves who are
in effect following the route set out before them by the central planners.

This is a bigger issue than the Second Amendment, but includes it. As I've
tried to point out in another thread, the Second Amendment has been cut
in half within the minds of many people.

The 2A like other issues has been effectively divided and conquered just
as the American people have been.

 

[Thin Black Line]

Americans have been speaking their minds for too long to tolerate being told that they now have to keep their political comments to themselves.

I needed a good chuckle today. Whether it's the self-censoring PC speak
practiced by liberals in ivory towers across the campuses of higher education
or red-blooded GOP conservatives who have to look around to make sure no
one can hear them ask me "Are we really making any difference in Iraq?",
people are already keeping their political comments to themselves.

LOL, that's why you and I are using our real names here.....

These are dark and dangerous times that we're entering. The events that follow in the next 3-4 years can potentially change the shape of America as we know it...

Agreed. However, it only took Poland 3-4 weeks to fall.

The battlefront got lost, and with it the illusion that there had ever been a battlefront. For this was no war of occupation, but a war of quick penetration and obliteration—Blitzkrieg, lightning war. Swift columns of tanks and armored trucks had plunged through Poland while bombs raining from the sky heralded their coming. They had sawed off communications, destroyed animal, scattered civilians, spread terror. Working sometimes 30 miles (50 km) ahead of infantry and artillery, they had broken down the Polish defenses before they had time to organize. Then, while the infantry mopped up, they had moved on, to strike again far behind what had been called the front.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

Vern...It just dawned on me that when Americans can be arrested and prosecuted for what they say...short of threatening the life of an elected official...that may come closer to sparking a second revolution than even the undermining of the RKBA. Americans have been speaking their minds for too long to tolerate being told that they now have to keep their political comments to themselves.

We are not the men our forefathers were -- there will be many who approve of this blatant destruction of the First Amendment. Others will complain, but not get off the couch and do anything about it.

That's what this thread is about -- doing something. But notice how many want to complain, but not act.

 

[Fawkes]

I envision the internet being the way to contact the younger generation. Well produced and edited videos on youtube.com showing the safe use of firearms, podcasts by responsible gunowners, etc. The NRA has produced some podcasts, but who wants to hear LaPierre drone on and on? I would love to have a video of Eddie the Eagle course posted on the net and then have the emails of the link sent to friends with children.

The outdoor channel is showing a few gun related shows. How about on a show that shows the various shooting competitions? And put it on a channel like ESPN or Fox Sports. If they can show poker for hours on end, why not a good shooting show?

Any writers out there? How about some screen plays for action movies that show the positive of CCW? I've been working on one for a couple years. Anybody else with this type of interest?

We just need to be crafty, and use the very same mediums that the antis have used. How many of us are too embarrassed to mention that they are shooters? How many of you have an NRA/GOA, ISPC/IDPA/Cowboy, or some other pro2a sticker on your vehicle? Who has an NRA mug at work? Who wears an NRA shirt/hat other than to the range or to a show? Writing to our politicians is one thing, but some of these smaller things will help reach the masses.

 

[Smurfslayer]

Complain, but not act....

I wouldn't say that complaining here is mutually exclusive with acting, or reacting for that matter to suppor RKBA. Nevertheless I would point out one aspect that in a way supports the "conditioning" theory.

We all seem to be focusing on NRA either doing the wrong thing, not doing anything, or not doing enough of a good thing.

First, we should correctly steer this discussion as one about NRA-ILA, the political wing of NRA. Second, just because the NRA-ILA leadership is, assuming for the sake of discourse, guilty of all of the above simply being an NRA member and doing what NRA-ILA asks you to do just is NOT ENOUGH.

Third, and possibly most importantly, I freely admit that the NRA-ILA is the largest of the RKBA lobbying organizations. Arguably, the most effective, certainly the most reknowned. That said, they are not the only game in town and frankly we have suffered so many defeats since '68 that we have long since passed the peril of "outflanked" to "completely surrounded". There are literally so many avenues we can be attacked on that it is impossible to defend them all. However, it is possible for us to beat back at least a flank of these attackers if we pool our efforts. If we continue to lash out in hundreds of different directions, uncoordinated, undisciplined, lacking experience we shall certainly lose ( <- Not loose ).

CTD wants his M4, and I credit him; he has done his research and posted on this before. I wouldn't put it past him to be able to succeed. Smurfslayer wants nothing more than to drive a stake through the heart of the National Parks self defense ban and God willing 2007 will see that done. The NRA-ILA cannot fight our battles for us, just as the police can't be everywhere to stop crime before it happens. We have to do it ourselves.

We may all disagree on what should be done first, but if we cannot compromise amongst ourselves, then we are the "house divided against itself". More than anything, we need victory. The first step to that victory is to identify which SPECIFIC problem we are trying to address. Spare us the "restore my right to bear any arm I want" declarations, identify a specific infringement of RKBA that can be overturned, defeated or nullified. Then we need to come up with potential plans of attacking it. Complaining about it on internet forums is #15 on the list, we've only covered items 1 & 2 here.

So my retort is that NRA-ILA is not the "answer" to curing any infringements of RKBA, we are and rather than single them out we should lead and not follow.

 

[DHard3006]

rojoko: Same old same old same old and you miss the main point netirely.. because you've gone straight into a rant mode..

The only people that spew crap like this are Sarah Brady and her brady bunch. What “rant” are you talking about? The “shall not infringe” part? Hell gun hater that is in the 2nd amend. If we limited the 1st amend the way you want to limit the 2nd amend limited you would not be able to send out porn spam.

rojoko: The major population centers in the US have the most important voting blocks in this country.

Well gun hater are you referring to the ones with the highest crime rates with the most stringent gun control laws?

rojoko: because in polls of young people today, guns are bad..

Ah gun hater would these be the same polls that said the leftist aka progressives would win when President Bush first ran? You know about eight years ago. The leftist aka progressives ran on the ticket of anti god, anti gun and pro the perversion of homosexual marriage. The leftist aka progressives refer to that as the 3 g’s.

rojoko: BTW one of the major factors of the shrinking community is the fact that the older generations are simply passing away.

Gee when I visit shooting ranges or the shooting areas there are more and more people exercising their right to bear arms.
Not to forget how many times a year firearms are used to stop a crime. What is the number? Something like 2 ½ million times a year.

rojoko: The worst of course, the NRA.

Spoken like a true gun hater.

rojoko: responsibly

A gun hater trigger word.

All the gun haters want to do is splinter the right to bear arms people. The NRA is slowly pulling it’s head out of it’s backside and getting back to a no compromise stand. There is no such thing as a good gun control law. There are however good laws that punish people for the criminal use of a gun.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

I wouldn't say that complaining here is mutually exclusive with acting, or reacting for that matter to suppor RKBA. Nevertheless I would point out one aspect that in a way supports the "conditioning" theory.

We all seem to be focusing on NRA either doing the wrong thing, not doing anything, or not doing enough of a good thing.

Normally, I would agree but we are not facing a normal situation. We are facing a disaster, and that calls for a change of strategy.

The NRA is our organization, and is the most powerful pro-gun organization. We need to re-shape it to deal with the current situation, to develop and implement new, more effective strategies.

 

[rojoko]

Pax,

let me run this past you,

Fidonet "echomail" come into being in 1985. So for 21 years now, I've been watching reading and even moderating the conversations around firearms and especially the 2nd fight.

The thoughts, posts, basically everything to do with firearms has not changed one bit in those 21 years.

No one really wants to think about it, takes to much effort. No one wants to really get past what they want, which is their pleasure, convenience, etc etc etc. I'm being brutal here, but for the most part, it's true. I could un-archive 11 years of discussions from Fidonet and you'd be shocked, because it's the same old same old..

Most of all we have a bloated ineffective organization in Washington that's been loosing this battler since the late 70's. Because they also don't think. They think and work along a very narrow bandwidth that has long since proven ineffective.

We're loosing, we're going to loose unless things change.. and if it takes much longer, then why bother? Because we've lost.

I'm having a conversation with a Brit in email at the moment and he's complaining about the fact that the UK has turned into a "polic state" as he calls it. Now the UK is supposed the be Democratic and a country with "liberty".... part of the western world. It really isn't.. but we don't talk about that to much...

Well, this Country, AMERICA, land of liberty will be about the same within 20-30 years if not sooner. Once we loose the 2nd, we're all fair game.

Can anyone get off thier dead a** to do something about it? Nope.. not convenient.. to much like work. So yes, I've used hyperbol, whatever to see if I could stir the pot (so to speak).. and what are the results? Same old same old. We're screwed. The shooting community is actually a sad statement of what this country have come to.. because it WON'T get off it's duff to do anything, let alone think... just watch, I have been.. nothings changed.

Realistically I won't be around in 20-30 years and I think God I won't be here to see it.. what a sad statement or even a pitiful epitaph for the Land of Lost Liberty. I'd appreciate it if left this one alone.

 

[rojoko]

Pax,

so you also understand, I have an ongoing conversation with several of my friends, most of us are past 50... and a little disgusted by what we see.. but in all of the feedback I've gotten on the state of the shooting commnity, the most simple and straight to the heart of the matter statement that I've received is:


"But you're right about one thing -- a lot of gun owners are whiners and couch potatoes."


Remember, I've been reading, facilitating, etc online discussions for 21 years now...

They just don't see it, and as someone that's shown himself to be above the norm, I hope you see it or at least are starting to... because we've lost if things don't change QUICKLY!!
Starting with the NRA!!

 

[rojoko]

Vern, as probably one of the senior members of this group, thank you for sharing your wisdom. It must be all those years thinking tactics and strategy!

It's coming down to saying I pray to God that these people wake up.. we've been loosing for 30 years now and they just don't see it and they sure as hell won't do much about it..

EVERY person that owns any kind of firearm, even is interested in firearms or whatever must take the time to do one thing minumal: Apply preasure to the NRA to change QUICKLY!...

Time to change the structure, get rid of the front man (LaPierre), change tactics (AND NOW, I AM NOT SAYING THERE NEEDS TO BE ANY COMPRIMISES), it more a question of taking the battle back to the bastards that have been programming the American public for 30+ years now.. and even more then that, but the ball MUST get rolling... because like Greek Mythology, we're pushing on hell of a BIG rock uphill!!

Come on folks, spread the word, let's get people in here and organized!!! (unless the moderator would prefer we take it elsewhere, PAX, not here to cause you any grief). Please let me know..

 

[Fawkes]

Would that be the equivelant to rolling a Mac up a hill in Geek mythology? Sorry, that slipped. I need to keep my fingers off the keyboard until ready to type.

 

[Green Lantern]

But yet, if you try to use a logical argument that hollowpoints can and do sway juries...

Actually, hollowpoints are MORE humane! With their increased "knock-down" potential, you can manage to stop a fight with fewer shots than with ball. With ball, you'd possibly have to put so many holes through so many vital organs that there'd be no chance the aggressor could survive.

-or so goes Mas Ayoob's stance in his "oldie but goodie" book, The Truth About Self Protection. Works for me!

And he probably also mentioned the risk of over-penetration with ball.

So, to a bloodthirsty prosecuter, a shooter with hollowpoints = a madman out to KILL someone with super-dooper-deadly-1000 percent lethal bullets!

And a shooter with ball = a madman who's out to KILL someone by riddling him with giant or a LOT of small bullets that could each go through the "victim" and kill a CHILDREN!

I say, carry what you WANT to carry, but play the "what if" game just a little bit to come up with "defensable" positions to justify it!

 

[Ryder]

You said -

1) If the 2nd ammendment gets comprimised, the 1st ammendment is next!

Why should that bother you? In your own words -

I would not allow discussion of illegal issues.

So which is it? You want freedom for others or you want to control them?

If that's your way of saying you've had an epiphany then congratualtions but I'll keep my distance just the same. I associate based on what has been done in the past, not what is promised for the future.

 

[rojoko]

Actually, I'm going to start calling this What we can do, unless Pax wants me to move it..


However first things first!

Take one simple step.. go out and get people into this forum. Let's get this thing organized PLEASE!!

Once we start to do this, we'll try for a second step!!

BUT PLEASE, GET ANY AND ALL SHOOTERS IN HERE!! IT"S IMPORTANT!! (even if it might be inconvenient!!).

If someone wants to rant and rave, fine, but go ahead and do that somewhere else, this is about a constructive effort, not about nastygrams or what's more important to do or save... this is a simple issue everyone can do.. get shooters in here to organize and this means EVERYONE!!
and yes, I'm doing it too!!

 

[rojoko]

Pax,

Posted this in rallying point. Again if you'd like me to move it, please advise:


To anyone that's interested, we're meeting in Legal and Political in the thread called "wake up again"... to organize.

I storngly suggest that the people that are interested in saving our ability to own firearms come over and help! Please take careful note of that word, it's help. Not doing it for the sake of debate, discussion or anything other then to actually do something constructive for a change!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Folks, if every shooter, hunters, whatever or even a person intersted in firearms doesn't get up and get involved, it's a done deal. Because we've been loosing steadily for more then 20 years now.. and we're damn near out of time... I don't care if you believe it or not, just mark my words and come on over and help!

Moderators, please cross post to appropriate SIGs. Thanks in advance!

 

[Ryder]

Thanks for answering my question.