Wal-mart being sued over suicide

[RangerHAAF]

As I understand the law; doesn't form 4473 and the NICS system look out for if and when a person was "involuntarily" committed to a nut house? If a person or family member voluntarily commits themselves, it won't show up with the NICS, will it?

 

[charby]

"Ms. Stewart had a "meltdown" during an argument with the pharmacy's staff and was arrested and cited for assaulting a customer, Ms. Bracy said. "

NICS FAILED!!!.... This should have been a no go when the clerk at Wal-Mart called it in. Cited is the same as charged right?

I hope Wal-Mart fights this and wins. (as much as I hate Wally World too)

Charby

 

[raz-0]

Cited is the same as charged right?

Don't know if cited is the same as charged, but even if it is, simple assault is a misdemeanor every place I'm familliar with.

 

[wolf]

well...CA hates walmart...its non-union and dosent pay a living wage and it sells non PC items..(guns, leather etc) and drives the little guy out of business...

wally will pay...they want the CA market

wolf

 

[Henry Bowman]

Perhaps Wal-Mart is supposed to keep a nationwide "black list." Should they also refuse to sell those persons a kitchen knife, drain cleaner, rope, a belt, a plastic bag. a garden hose . . . ?

The best way to answer, "Where does it end?" is to not begin.

 

[SLCDave]

I bet if she was denied the purchase of a shotgun, and went on to kill herself in a more painful way, the parents would sue Walmart for dicsriminating against their daughter, and causing her more suffering...

 

[sm]

I'm getting a headache from all this litigation of weird stuff.

I hope WM fights and wins.

If these cases are not fought , won and precedence established , folks will be suing everthing from the folks that make their undies , clothes and shoes ( cause they were dressed at the time) to the various mfgs of the vehicle they drove, ( car maker, battery, tires , oil , gas... otherwise the vehicle could not hav run to get them there- wherever "there" might be) to streets , parking lots...you get the idea.

Sounds to me NICS goofed up. Most folks have to learn to eat crow and face the music when they goof up. NICS just has to admit - if they did.

Perhaps the anti's will learn that failures occur in regulating statues. They sure don't believe BGs ignore the law...or like Prohibition didn't work...

Mistakes are a part of Life. Litigation cannot change what happened.

 

[charby]

okay.. so if simple assault is a misdemeaner, wouldn't falsifying information on the form 4473 be considered a felony?

 

[ProactiveReactionary]

Why are people so obsessed with shifting the blame to inanimate objects?

I think part of it has to do with the fact that it is easier to blame an inanimate object than it is to blame an actual person for some people.

pretty much. the same reason why parents think their children are innocent when they commit crimes, or how they think their children are perfect while they try to set fire to the family's cat or dog.

its much easier for a person to say and accept the idea that the gun rather than the person they created or related to in some way was at fault by choosing to off themselves in some horrorific way.

i do believe the parents are simply wanting to cash in on this more than they are looking for justice.

how is walmart suppose to know who does and doesnt have a mental problem? they cant. can you? can anyone just look at a person and guess with any kind of accuracy? so why is walmart being blamed? money, plain and simple.

its been my experience that those with mental problems and having serious thoughts of suicide are NOT going to go unnoticed unless it is done deliberately. so either they allowed this to escalate (by simply dismissing any comments she made as being outrageous and didnt take them seriously) or didnt care (until after the fact, then the waterworks come out so they can try and cash in on their daughters death)

if not with a gun (certainly the most expedient) there are other ways to kill yourself, and some of those methods dont require a background check or even a second glance at the checkout counter.

the case should be thrown out and the incident chalked up to nothing more than life gone terribly awry.

 

[DRZinn]

What if she stepped out in front of a train to kill herself?

This happened a couple months ago. She wasn't trying to kill herself, but sued the train company when she was struck while walking on the tracks, because there was no sign warning that trains run on the tracks.

 

[joab]

Why are people so obsessed with shifting the blame to inanimate objects?

I think part of it has to do with the fact that it is easier to blame an inanimate object than it is to blame an actual person for some people.

Many years ago my boss tried to sell me a LLama .45. I thought the $175 he was asking was too much.
About a year or so later he used the gun to kill himself.
To this day his widow blames me.
If it makes her feel better I can live with it, I never even met the lady.

 

[coylh]

I think humans have a basic need to resolve questions. We want to know why. For some reason this desire peaks at age two and a half.

When there are no answers, people invent them. Unanswerable questions are the pilars of religion everywhere.

 

[XLMiguel]

RangerHAAF hit it - until they change the law so that ANYONE who has any contact with the mental health establishment is registered and "in the system" we just won't have any way of protecting them from themselves :banghead: Afterall the system can't report on information that it doesn't have (yeah, we're from the government and we're here to help you ).

Seems to me that bi-polar people are known to do stuff like commit suicide, and the parents knew she was bi-polar, so if there's negligence here, it must be theirs. They obviously raised a defective kid. Their kid, their responsibility. Oh, wait! She was 23 - an adult, not a kid- responsible for herself Note to parents - see if the ACLU will give you a hand in getting the privacy laws pertaining to the 'mentally ill' changed. Yeah, that's the ticket, maybe the APA (American Psychological Ass'n) will help, too.

Maybe it was God's fault - He works in mysterious ways - so sue Yahweh. Or maybe they should just understand that there are some things in life for which there is no rationale, no acceptable explanation, and nobody's fault. Sometimes life sucks.

 

[SWMAN]

If the family knew she was suicidal shouldn't one of them have been with her 24/7 so they could stop her from committing suicide? That's as good an answer as suing Wal-Mart for her killing herself.

 

[jefnvk]

Is this attorney suggesting that stores keep mug shots of all the "crazy people." I hope this case gets dismissed.

But if they did that, it would be an invasion of privac, and they would be sued

Here's the form: http://www.atf.gov/forms/4473/index.htm

It clearly says 'or have you ever been comitted to a mental instution?'. It also says that falsifying information is a felony.

She had seemed fine, Ms. Bracy said, and doctors had recently assured her that Ms. Stewart was mentally fit for her studies and an independent life, she said.

Maybe they should go after the doctors as well. After all, the DID tell her that the girl was fine

 

[flatrock]

Guns don't kill people. People do.

In countries where they have drastically limited gun ownership it hasn't caused a significant decrease in suicide. Guns do not cause suicide.

It's a shame that this young woman chose to take her own life.

It's not Wal-mart's fault.
It's not the gun manufacturer's fault.
It's not even the government's fault for the failure of NICS.

Walmart should not be collecting data on their customers and using that data to determine if they should sell guns to customers. It's not Walmart's job to determine who is allowed to buy guns.

The government has a process and as long as retailers follow it and don't purpously ignore warning signs that something is wrong, they should to be held accountable for selling a gun to someone who the government has decided is ineligible. If the government decides someone is ineligible, it's up to the government to make sure they deny permission to sell the weapon.

 

[Old NFO]

I agree with Flatrock

Bottom line- the parents were negligent for letting the "suicidal" daughter out of their sight. Now they want to blame anyone but themselves...

It's a sorry situation when a case like this is even allowed to be filed. The US has become a litigeous society and one that refuses to accept responsibility for their actions. The other thing this points out, as if we didn't already know it, is that NCIS is fallable.

Sorry the woman died, but Walmart is no more to blame than we are here on this web site.

jim

 

[Edmond]

Guns do not cause suicide.

Right. If they want to commit suicide, they'll do it if there are guns or not. They'll slit their wrists, they'll sit in the garage with the car running, they'll jump off a bridge.

 

[fistful]

Wal-Mart should use the stuff-happens defense. In fact, a lot of defendants should use the stuff-happens defense. Won't someone please bring before a court the simple notion that stuff happens? Come on! Sometimes stuff happens. Sometimes people kill themselves.

Wal-Mart guy was supposed to ask, "Why do you want this?" What does that do?! How was he supposed to know that she would "have a melt-down" as a result of a simple question?

 

[aroshi]

I think most of the points have been made concerning this:

It's a shame it happened. Stuff happens. It's a shame she used a firearm. Since she obviously had intent and fore-thought going into it, she would have found some other way.

But one thing I think was overlooked here:

She is a 23yr old burden to her parents and family. She is not a productive individual (it would seem). She is very easily manipulated (I don't know a manic-depressive that isn't). She has extremely low self-esteem and self-worth and probably sees everything she is doing to her family.

Anyone other than me think that perhaps the idea was for her to use a Wal-mart purchased shotgun so they could sue? Perhaps she thought of it, perhaps someone else did, maybe the family. Just a thought.

 

[fistful]

Perhaps she thought of it, perhaps someone else did, maybe the family.

No, I see the dark hand of Karl Rove in this. Somebody call Dan Rather.

 

[Tom Servo]

Replace the word "gun" with "pills" or "drain cleaner" or "rope," and see what kind of lawsuit they can pull off.

 

[RangerHAAF]

Where was the suit filed?

I was just wondering. Didn't this occur in Texas; and doesn't Texas have a law which precludes this type of lawsuit against retailers and gunmakers? For now, there is no federal protection against such lawsuits. Was it filed in federal court?

This lawsuit won't have much merit if it goes forward in Texas but these people would be able to get away with it in California.

 

[Mastrogiacomo]

This is stupid, you can't buy a gun without a permit. She was issued it by the police who had no access to her confidental medical records or I'm sure she would have been denied. Obviously, she lied on the gun permit forms when they ask if you have drug or mental problems they should know about. And she lied again on the forms to buy the gun where they ask that same question. Since neither Walmart, nor the PD has legal access to her medical records -- how are they supposed to know?

I love the mother's response. If someone asked me what I was going to do with the gun, I'd reply "none of your business, is it?"

 

[Battlespace]

The attorney for the plantiff was just on FOX. What a joke. I have served on a civil suit jury and unless she would have walked in an declared she was mentally unstable I do not see much of a case for them. He kept saying that Walmart had a duty to further investigate firearms purchasers.