Warning Shots

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ArfinGreebly

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Off duty deputy fires "warning shots" at burglars.

Columbus, Georgia:
http://www.ledger-enquirer.com/mld/ledgerenquirer/15868607.htm

Investigators believe reserve sheriff's deputy Marcus Seldon shot Lovett while chasing him away from Seldon's car about 6 a.m. Thursday. Seldon will not be charged in the shooting, said sheriff's Capt. Joe McCrea.

Hmmm. There wouldn't be a double standard here, would there?

Same scenario with a civilian shooter: does he get charged?
 
I've always been told that shooting someone in the back is a huge no no as far as the law was concerned.

Police are allowed to shoot fleeing suspects in some situations. I don't think this was one of those situations.

Had he been a common "civilian" I suspect charges would be filed.
 
Y'all need to check Georgia out a wee bit closer. I don't see a double standard here.

As far as shooting someone in the back goes...it depends on the situation. Suppose the assailant has just fired all of his ready ammunition at you and missed, then turns to go back to his ammunition supply to reload and shoot at you some more?

Someone can still be a threat and still be continuing an attack even though his back was turned at the moment you were able to stop the threat.

I know of a shooting a few weeks ago where just this happened. A man attacked another man with his fists. Beat the man pretty badly and the guy didn't draw on him. Then the attacker broke off and retreated a ways, bent over to pick up a brick-apparently with the intent to continue his assault afterwards with a weapon. At that point, the victim drew and fired several rounds. One of the rounds struck the assailant in the right buttock and penetrated his torso to the heart. No charges were filed.

A few years ago a woman was abducted from her home in Tennessee by an estranged boyfriend. While he was breaking through the door, she jumped out of a second story window trying to escape him. She suffered compression vertebral fractures doing this. The man then killed her mother in the house and caught her behind the house. He used duct tape to bind her and abducted her in his van. He took her to Georgia. He stopped for gas outside of Rome, Georgia. She managed to free herself from the duct tape while he was inside paying for the gas and found the pistol he had left in the van. She met him as he returned with the gun in her hand. He ran. She shot him as he ran and then, as he lay there bleeding, shot him several more times and killed him. This was posted at the time on TFL and several members from other states posted about how this was a bad shoot and she was in a world of legal trouble. They were right as far as Georgia law goes. It was not a justifiable homicide under Georgia law. However, they were not familiar with Georgia. I stated that she would not be arrested, would not be indicted and was in no trouble at all. I was right and they were mistaken. She was not arrested and was not indicted. I never saw any indication the shooting was even presented to a grand jury.

McCrea said the case will be referred to a grand jury for review, but Georgia law now allows residents to use force to protect their property, and regards a person's vehicle as an extension of his home.

Y'all also seem to be ignoring this segment of the report. It's a recent change and has not been broadly publicized but it's in the code. Look for yourself: http://www.legis.ga.gov/legis/GaCode/?title=1
 
It's not about "shooting in the back"

Read the article.

The "warning shots" were fired at someone who
a) hadn't attacked (no weapon presented)
b) was fleeing
c) had violated property only.

Georgia is okay with this?
 
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Warning Shot? Courts may not believe so

You screw yourself when you give a warning shot.

In court, the criminal will say that he was the real victim and you came out of nowhere gun blazing. They will say it wasn't a warning shot, but an AD (making you grossly negligent) or you shot and missed, inventing the "warning shot" arguement after the fact. How would you prove in court that it really was a warning shot?

Some courts have allowed the validity of warning shots, but many have ruled that they present the same liablility / responsibility as any other lethal force use. In other words, you shoot, you used lethal force, end of story.

You do the perp a favor with a warning shot. He won't be returning that favor when in court he paints you as the real criminal. Personally, I think we should all have our minds made up that we are not out to do the perp any favors, but are solely interested in saving our lives and that of family members.
 
Why are they even calling it a "warning shot"? :confused:
He did not seem to be trying to warn the perp, if he hit him. A warning shot would be in the air, or toward the ground, wouldn't it?
Is there some sort of legal cover he gets?
Is "warning" somehow better than shooting to arrest, or shooting to protect his property?
 
Double has it right. How is it a warning shot when the suspect is hit? :confused: That is one heck of a warning.



I'm involved with a warning shot situation that I cannot comment on right now, but I will when I can. Warning shots are prefectly legal here, and in IMHO would save lives if employed more often. There is nothing like the sound of a .45 going off to get your attention.
 
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Byron Quick: G-d bless Georgia!!! :neener: You know what it would be like here in NY. Sometimes it feels like the perps designed the system.
And to 007: Yes, it was a warning not to continue his life of crime or next time it will be two to the chest and one to the head!:evil:
 
Read the article.

The "warning shots" were fired at someone who
a) hadn't attacked (no weapon presented)
b) was fleeing
c) had violated property only.

Georgia is okay with this?

Arfin,

The 'shooting in the back' part of my post was directed at the post by bthest86 stating he had 'always been told' that shooting someone in the back was not allowed.

I've never seen 'warning' shots addressed in a Georgia statute or in Georgia case law. Even if Georgia is OK with warning shots, I think warning shots are a bad idea for many reasons even if they are completely legal.

I have never seen a statutory requirement in Georgia laws requiring the cessation of lethal force if the criminal is fleeing. A gas station owner I know chased a would-be robber from his station. As they ran he fired one shot into the ground while shouting,"Stop, or the next one will be into your back." The would-be robber stopped, turned around, and lunged for the station owner, shouting,"I'll make you eat that gun." The station owner replied,"Eat this." and fired one shot-striking the would-be robber through both lungs, the heart, and the liver. The station owner was taken to the local police station, questioned, and released. He was back at his business before 5PM, not arrested and never indicted. Reckon Georgia was OK with it.

As far as attacking goes with no weapon 'presented,' I know of no statutory requirement for a weapon to be even possessed, much less presented. You are allowed to use lethal force to prevent a forcible felony. The statutory definition of a forcible felony in Georgia is a felony in which force, or the threat of force, is used.

As far as protecting property goes, the law has recently changed. I have not had the opportunity to discuss the new law with an attorney to make sure I understand what is meant by various terms in the statute. The statute appears to allow the protection of at least some property. Where the article stated that a vehicle is considered to be an extension of your home in Georgia...if a home is forcibly entered in Georgia by someone who is not a member of the household then lethal force is justified by statute to prevent the commission of further felonies. The statute does not require the intruder be armed, or protects him if he is in the process of fleeing. Nor does it require being in fear of death or of grave bodily injury. This law is only about three years old and I am not aware of any case law arising from it.

The robber who was killed by the gas station owner died at the scene of the shooting. His family tried to sue for wrongful death. The family could not find an attorney who would take the suit on a contingency fee basis. The attorneys all wanted their fee up front and in cash. For a simple reason-the attorneys knew there would be no award from a jury to obtain a fee from.
 
Hmmm

Byron,

It would seem that Georgia has a whole different view of the defense of property and the force that may be used to do so.

If I tried that stunt here in Nevada, I'd be charged with attempted murder.

No threat to my person, therefore "self defense" can't be established; firing on a retreating person who had not attacked me and was not in the process of attacking anyone else would be insupportable. Go directly to jail, do not pass GO, do not collect $200.

Could you arrange for the Nevada legislature to adopt that "defense of property" thing? I'd be much obliged.

In Nevada, ownership is fine, open carry is fine, CCW is "shall issue." The rules of engagement, however, pretty much suck. Retreat if possible, and all that. No protection of property. Standard AOJ rules with the "and you must be in imminent danger/fear for your life" twist.

Georgia lets you defend your property?

Rock on, dude!
 
Warning shots are prefectly legal here, and in IMHO would save lives if employed more often. There is nothing like the sound of a .45 going off to get your attention.
In MT a "warning shot" (defined as intentionally shooting in the general direction of a person) is classified as "deadly force" and therefore may only be legally used to stop/prevent a "forcible felony." So basically, if you are justified in firing a "warning shot' then you are justified in actually shooting the ethically challenged individual (otherwise known as a "bad guy" ;) )

However, another scenario has been rolling around in my mind (please don't flame me for this - just thinking out loud). Suppose you are in one of the following situations: 1) altercation between two other people (DV?) where you fear that one of them is going to be killed or seriously injured; 2) a trespasser on your rural land who is some distance away, and whom you can't hail by voice because of his ATV engine, etc. What if one were to fire a "signal shot" in a safe direction (such as into the dirt near yourself - not towards the other person) just to get the attention of the combatants/trepassers...? :confused:

I actually did this once in the case of a large dog that was causing a problem on our property, and it worked as desired. (yelling repeatedly was having no effect)
 
Found the statutes in the Criminal Code:
16-3-24.
(a) A person is justified in threatening or using force against another when and to the extent that he reasonably believes that such threat or force is necessary to prevent or terminate such other´s trespass on or other tortious or criminal interference with real property other than a habitation or personal property:
(1) Lawfully in his possession;
(2) Lawfully in the possession of a member of his immediate family; or
(3) Belonging to a person whose property he has a legal duty to protect.
(b) The use of force which is intended or likely to cause death or great bodily harm to prevent trespass on or other tortious or criminal interference with real property other than a habitation or personal property is not justified unless the person using such force reasonably believes that it is necessary to prevent the commission of a forcible felony.

51-11-9.
A person who is justified in threatening or using force against another under the provisions of Code Section 16-3-21, relating to the use of force in defense of self or others, Code Section 16-3-23, relating to the use of force in defense of a habitation, or Code Section 16-3-24, relating to the use of force in defense of property other than a habitation, has no duty to retreat from the use of such force and shall not be held liable to the person against whom the use of force was justified or to any person acting as an accomplice or assistant to such person in any civil action brought as a result of the threat or use of such force.

Both of these statutes are fairly new. I'm not aware of any incidents occurring after their adoption that was covered by them.

Section (b) of 16-3-24 actually makes this statute appear to be redundant. The use of lethal force is authorized to stop a forcible felony whether property is involved or not.
 
If you intend to pull the trigger that first shot and sudden pain the assailent feels is the warning shot, the next one goes between their eyes. Thats just the way I see it, warning shots are a waste of ammo and innocent lives.
 
Byron,

I'm with you on this even though your posts usually piss me off. No state (or the federal government for that matter) should make laws that absolutely prohibit or "make illegal" any such act of self defense because there's no way - and I mean NO WAY that legislators can predict the circumstances of every single possible future situation. Discretion in these matters should always be left up to a jury.

Both of the situations that you cited should be justifiable shoots under any laws or moral guidelines created by God or man. Right is right no matter how you spin it.

However, there are some states - for example the state in which I live - where a non-LEO shooter would have ended up in jail in both of the cases that you cited, as well as in the case outlined in the first post in this thread.

The really bad part is that if a LEO or a disgustingly fat, bloated, gasbag senator had done the same thing in Massachusetts, he'd get away with it scott-free.

I'd move to Georgia if it wasn't so hot.
 
There's a place for most everything, including pistol whuppin', "brandishing" and, just maybe, "warning shots".
I don't want to shoot a man, just get the job done.
If I can get it done short of pulling a trigger and filling a grave, I likely will.
Anything more is too much.

Biker
 
In Ohio he just lost his job, and would most likely be charged with reckless assault in one form or another. Warning shots have been out of departmental policy for at least 30 years. Probably since the Ohio revised code was implimented in the 60s.
 
". . . so I grabbed the shotgun off the wall and fired two warning shots. Into his head. . ."

Everybody sing, now!

He had it comin'. . .

:neener:
 
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