Was Your CCW Class Full of Inaccurate Shooters?

[The Filthy Spitoon]

I am only asking because on another thread a member named Werewolf recounted his experience with people who couldn't hit the broad side of a barn from the inside and it mirrored my own to a creepy extent.

The idea of mandatory training was then discussed, but wasn't really fleshed out. I do not think it would make people better shooters, as it doesn't seem to make police better. It seems that taking an interest in shooting accurately is the only way someone is going to become proficient, and mandatory training never includes the hours upon hours of range time or dry-firing.

My question is this - why would someone be so unconcerned about competency as to bring a gun they've never even fired to a CCW class? People practice driving before taking a driver's test, but the tendency of people in CCW classes to miss a huge target at 10 feet bothers me.

Why doesn't it bother them?

Are they just not taking it seriously?

Moreover, do you feel safe knowing that this person is out there and could just as likely hit you as a bad guy if some shooting started? Granted, this isn't Dodge City and most will never draw their guns.... but if our economy goes the way of Argentina's, it is not out of the realm of possibiliy to see violent crime become commonplace.

If mandatory training isn't the answer, how do we shame people into competency?

 

[indie]

several people in my class had never fired a gun and had to use loaners, two didnt even have belts.

I do think you should have to at least know basic safety and handling before getting a CCW license

 

[Gaffer]

From the live fire sessions of the classes I help out with we see very few who are proficient with a hand gun. Most are satisfied at hitting the 14 x 24 sheet of paper we use as a target at 5 yards. Many have never fired a gun before and are intimidated by the noise and recoil. We try to help them by explaining the firm grip and proper sight alignment but most are so nervous that I am afraid that they cannot listen and learn. Many of the ladies have problems with the trigger pull on revolvers or are intimidated by the semi autos. Some of the students seem to have a problem with the concept of sight alignment and only point the handgun in the general direction and let fly. Scary!
It is a very frustrating session but I do not make the decision for pass or fail so I do the best I can to get them through it safely and let the class chief instructor do the rest.

 

[The Filthy Spitoon]

Again, I'm not saying mandatory training is the answer... but in this state you can't even hunt without taking a Hunter Safety Course. Yet there are no standards whatsoever if you want to carry a gun at a crowded venue.

I am for less restrictions on citizens in general, but damn people seem oblivious to personal responsibility. It might have been different if it was a small percentage, 80% of my class mates had simply never fired a handgun before, or maybe were in severe need of practice.

 

[youngda9]

This isn't a problem, or else it would have been all over the news...you can count on that. We all have different standards, everybody doesn't need to be trained to a certain(governmentally regulated?) level. We all have the rights to defend ourselves. Give the people credit for being there...Let it go.

 

[The Sarge]

No...we had about 20 and all were very familiar with guns and made one big hole in the target....

 

[frogomatic]

I blame movies. It seems like a lot of people are under the impression that you can just point the gun, yank the trigger and the bullet will magically find its target "just like in the movies man!"

 

[nitetrane98]

Helllllllllllllp me, I'm on the slippery slope. They started with reasonable requirements, then 70% score, then 80%, then 90%. It makes it easier if you're the one who gets to define reasonable.

I am for less restrictions on citizens in general, but damn people seem oblivious to personal responsibility.

I realize you're not advocating anything but you've hit the nail on the head here though slightly crooked. Tend to your own personal responsibility and let others tend to their's.

 

[Double Naught Spy]

My question is this - why would someone be so unconcerned about competency as to bring a gun they've never even fired to a CCW class?

Because they want to learn.

People practice driving before taking a driver's test, but the tendency of people in CCW classes to miss a huge target at 10 feet bothers me.

They don't take CCW class to miss a huge target at 10 feet. That is why they are in the class.

Why doesn't it bother them?

Are they just not taking it seriously?

I don't know. Did you score 100 on your driving test? Not everyone does. They just want to pass. The state sets the rules for what is good enough in driving and CCW qualifications and if they pass, many folks feel they are good enough. They have met the standard required of them to be licensed.

Moreover, do you feel safe knowing that this person is out there and could just as likely hit you as a bad guy if some shooting started? Granted, this isn't Dodge City and most will never draw their guns.... but if our economy goes the way of Argentina's, it is not out of the realm of possibiliy to see violent crime become commonplace.

Okay, now you are jumping to some bizarre conclusions and violent crime is fairly commonplace in many large cities already, but let's look at what you asked. Feel safe knowing there are folks like that out there? Do you feel safe knowing that a significant portion of the drivers around you didn't ace their driving test and have never been retested?

I feel safe enough. Probably 80% or more of them won't carry or won't carry with any regularity. Even many of those who passed the test well and that do carry probably don't practice more than once or twice a year. Some only practice in the week or two leading up to taking or renewing the class.

So you are worried about those folks out on the street and maybe using their gun in self defense and the risk that might be posed to you by them? You should probably be concerned about just about every student who takes a CCW class and passes. I don't know of a single CCW qualification that prepares any shooter for real world self defense shooting. As a result, there is no way to know how well any of those folks are going to do in real life with dynamic situations.

If mandatory training isn't the answer, how do we shame people into competency?

If they passed the test, the state says they have achieved the competency required. What you want to know is how we shame them into being significantly better than what the state mandates as a minimal requirement. Suffice it to say that most aren't going to feel shame for passing their CCW test.

My contention is that the standards for passing are simply too low to be meaningful. Then again, I feel the same way about most cops shoot quals as well.

I blame movies. It seems like a lot of people are under the impression that you can just point the gun, yank the trigger and the bullet will magically find its target "just like in the movies man!"

Given the shooting quals of most states, many are able to pass simply by pointing the gun at the target and pulling the trigger. I have seen first time shooters pass a Texas CHL test.

 

[hammerklavier]

Do the CCW instructors teach proper sight picture, or just let everyone "have at it"?

 

[mp510]

Here, the required course is an NRA Basic Pistol Course. This is necessary to get a permit, without which you can't buy, transport, or carry a pistol. The instructor I did my course with teaches at a very fast pace and follows the classroom session with 19 rounds of .22LR (10 through the semi auto, 9 through the revolver) [he will let you shoot more after, if you want]. Other instructors put more empahasis on the range portion. The instructor I took my class with would be great for somebody who was expereinced that needed the certification, but would be bad for somebody who had no pistol experience. Accuracy is not asessed- just safe gun handling ability.The was 1 lady that was taking the class when I did that I was very concerned about. She definetely seemed to be handling the pistol in an awkward and clumsy manner, had difficulty manipulating the slide, had difficulty maintaining control over where the pistol was pointed when clearing a misfire. Had I been the instructor, I would not have given her the passing letter/ certificate based on what I saw He did. Even if she only handles a pistol at the range, or in her house, she could put those around her in danger.

I actually like California's requirement that a handgun purchaser has to demonstrate that they know how to safely load, unload and other wise manipulate a handgun with dummies before they can leave the store with it. I bought a rifle at a gun store that has a similar policy, and it was not really any extra burden and could really be beneficial to somebody who is a new gun owner/ user.

 

[Gouranga]

Put it this way, I fired 35 rounds at my target, there were 36 holes in it when I got it back.

As to the thinking behind it for some folks,
Person A: "Did you read the news the other day? I think we really need to think about carrying a weapon to protect ourselves."

person B: "I don't like the idea of guns but you may be right. The cops cannot be there al lthe time."

Person A: "The sherrif says we need to take a course to get our permit."

Person B: "OK well lets go sign up for a concealed carry course then."

Obviously, I do not think anyone here will disagree with the notion of protecting oneself, instead of hoping the cops will get there in time. But the problem ism a lifetime of video games, nerf guns, and TV shows makes folks think guns are just bang bang piece of cake. Think about it, anyone here ever see a TV cop or shooter tear down and clean his gun during the show? Ever seen them performing proper maintenance? Ever seen an AD in TV? and they ALWAYS hit what they want to.

It is basic ignorance. I can honestly say, the first time I took my first handgun to the range, I was shocked at just how crappy a shot I was. I mean I could shoot shotguns and rifles like a champ, so how different could a handgun be? The hope is, maybe after seeing how poorly they do at CCW qualification that some of them will choose to practice a bit.

 

[Gouranga]

I actually like California's requirement that a handgun purchaser has to demonstrate that they know how to safely load, unload and other wise manipulate a handgun with dummies before they can leave the store with it. I bought a rifle at a gun store that has a similar policy, and it was not really any extra burden and could really be beneficial to somebody who is a new gun owner/ user.
__________________

As a state requirement, I do not like this. How is one to learn? Now the store I bought my handgun from, the dude walked me through breaking it down, and use before I went out as a courtesy and i greatly appreciated it. However, if you let a state mandate it they could easily get you into a chicken and egg scenario. You need to know the weapon before you buy it, but how do you do so without buying it and using it?

I really am torn in regulation guys. On one hand it is a matter of personal responsibility. On the other, I have met some folks so poor at using and maintaining firearms that they were a danger to themselves (which is fine), and other (which IMO is not fine). So on that side I can support some regulation but the government never made a regulation without the intent to expand it and restrict further so I tend to lean away...

 

[Maddox]

Instructor that taught the class I took had us all shoot the required rounds, everybody that I shot with had their own handguns and most seemed like that had shot them before.

After shooting the instructor told us we all did really well but we all made the same mistake, couldn't figure out what the hell he was talking about. Then he said, "you all took your time and aimed", said if you have to use your weapon at those distances that you dont have time to aim with the sites, that it comes down to point and shoot.


Overall at the range I thought everyone did well, it was in the classroom were I was scared. There was a definite lack of common sense. Questions that my 7 yr old could figure out had some of these people scratching their heads.

 

[jpatterson]

I had an interesting group in mine. It was made up mostly of soldiers from Fort Reilly and the rest regular Kansas folk. I too was very surprised at how bad most of the people were shooting. The majority of the people in my class had brought their own handgun but didn't seem to have much experience with it. I'm pretty sure I was the youngest person in that class and I actually did score the highest on the shooting portion

Beats me.

 

[huntsman]

Was Your CCW Class Full of Inaccurate Shooters?

NO. Are you an anti searching for material?

 

[Marlin 45 carbine]

2 women in my class had never fired any gun at all and didn't know diddly about their ccw pistols. both .380acp.
I let them fire my .22LR revolver several cylinders full each to get used to 'recoil' and trigger pull. then my .22LR semi-auto. then try their .380's.
they did get their ccw but just barely, they will be OK I think if any 'encounter' is at close distance say less than 20'.

 

[Texas Gun Person]

NO. Are you an anti searching for material?

Pretty sure he is asking because a lot of CCW classes are full of inaccurate shooters...

 

[thorazine]

They weren't bullseye slow fire accurate.

But they were accurate enough for a defensive shooting.

 

[huntsman]

Pretty sure he is asking because a lot of CCW classes are full of inaccurate shooters...

It was just covered quite extensively here, and who defines accurate and why? http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=505487

 

[mongoose33]

I think there are a couple things operating here.

One, some may be confused and think that the "class" will teach them how to shoot.

Second, I laugh when I see characters on television shooting guns as if they darned near aim themselves.

The images that come to mind are the one-handed shooting as well as the one-handed shooting of UZIs or similar small machine guns.

On TV, it *looks* easy. They make it look easy. And people are hitting all kinds of targets offhand or as snapshots.

So it looks to the uninitiated as if guns darned near can hop up off the table and shoot by themselves!

Thus, why would they have to train ahead of time? It's easy!


When I first started shooting semi-auto handguns not quite 2 years ago, I had about 3 minutes of initial instruction: Hold it like this, don't get your thumb behind the slide, two-hand grip, line up the sights like so. Just from that, I was on paper from 7 yards--and I was shocked. Shocked that I could do it.

But what is just as clear is that without that initial instruction, I really didn't know. I could see a newbie picking up a semi-auto handgun and holding it incorrectly and getting slide-bite from their first shot--or not knowing how to line up the sights--or limp-wristing it.

I'm sure some newbies think, deep down, that if they just sort of hold that gun out there, pointing in the general direction of the target, that magical gun will do the rest.

And it's not until you actually try to do it that you realize this isn't as easy as it looks and that hitting a target at 15 yards is much more difficult than it appears on television.

BTW: I have had a chance to shoot an UZI on a couple of occasions, and it was very revealing how inaccurate that gun can be if you don't know what you're doing. Holding the trigger down will simply cause the muzzle to climb up and right; even short bursts are difficult to hold on target.

And the idea of holding one in each hand and shooting anything like accurately? Forget it. That's for Hollywood.

 

[sharkman]

Back when I took my CCW class in NC it was being taught by some local LEO's from Raleigh PD. It was a side business for them. Abilities of the class was varied, some needed lots of coaching. Two cops taught the class and several other LEO's acted as RSO's. Funny thing was that after we all qualed they let the cops shoot, and I was a better shot most of them!

 

[Southern Rebel]

It seems that taking an interest in shooting accurately is the only way someone is going to become proficient, and mandatory training never includes the hours upon hours of range time or dry-firing.

I would question whether it takes hours and hours of range time in order to be capable of hitting a man-size target - unless you are suggesting that we REQUIRE a two inch minimum spread at 10 yards accuracy in order to pass the test. I would think that we are a small enough minority without deliberately eliminating some of our "less qualified". I would wager that the gun control groups would be most happy to help us weed out all but the most qualified.

I do agree with the idea of WANTING fellow gun owners to be adequately educated in safety and use of their guns. I also agree with the idea of WANTING them to be dedicated enough work on their shooting abilities. However, the second amendment does not include any qualifiers before bestowing the right to keep and bear arms.

To answer the question - my class of 25 consisted of about 21 out of the group that were "pie plate accurate" within 10 yards. The other 4 were about like the weaker shooters that you describe. However, being in rural Tennessee, most of the gun owners in my area are decent shooters.

Maybe my rural surroundings may cause me to be somewhat biased. Has there been a problem with "collateral damage" from licensed carriers who have tried to defend themselves and their poor shooting skills have injured innocent bystanders?

 

[M2 Carbine]

My question is this - why would someone be so unconcerned about competency as to bring a gun they've never even fired to a CCW class? People practice driving before taking a driver's test, but the tendency of people in CCW classes to miss a huge target at 10 feet bothers me.

Why doesn't it bother them?

Are they just not taking it seriously?

People are unbelievably lazy. They say they want to do something but if they have to put fourth the least little bit of effort they won't do it.

I have a range. I also have a good selection of guns.
I don't know how many times a person has expressed interest in learning to shoot or getting their carry license and I have offered to help them, at no charge, and I even supply the ammunition and guns free. Very few, probably less than one in 10-20, will even drive the short distance from town to get free help.

But the few that do have the interest usually do very well. Like this girl that on only her SECOND day shooting, first time shooting 15 yards and the first time shooting my Kimber 45, shot a 242/250 (50 timed shots from 3 yards to 15 yards).

 

[Starcheck55]

In the class I took there was only myself and one other gentleman who had any experience shooting, and he hadn't done any in almost 20 years. When it came to range time, it was a little embarrassing since most of the people were flinching so badly they couldn't qualify and there were soooo many glock limp wrists. The instructor spent most of his time helping clear malfunctions.