Was Your CCW Class Full of Inaccurate Shooters?

[charliehustle10]

Are you all trying to say that there is more to shooting then just pointing the gun in a general direction and pulling the trigger? Bullets are magic and cars drive themselves.

On a serious note, when I took my class in NC, there were a few who had never shot a gun before, but did surprisingly well on the live fire exercises. I talked to few students who were taking the class to not just carry, but orient themselves with handguns. I'm not sure it's the right class for that, but it is better then nothing.

Yes, it would make more sense to shoot a handgun (a lot), and become proficient with it, before obtaining a permit to carry one; but for some people the class was just a class on firearms, nobody is going to force them to carry it 24/7 just because they took the class. I doubt there is many people who take the class with no experience, go get their permit and then begin carrying. Once they get on THR, another forum, or go to the gun club, they will learn what they need to do in order to protect themselves.

I do agree the standards are a little low, but who am I to tell someone they shouldn't be allowed to carry a gun if they please to. I'll just make sure to have mine in case they need some help hitting their target.

 

[stickhauler]

Given that the normal classroom education segment of a concealed carry class, for the best part from what I've seen, is the NRA's Basic Pistol Course, the focus of most of the classroom portion seems dedicated to learning basic safety standards.

In my class, taught by the local sheriff's firearms instructor, he stressed that the information we learned was only the basics, and advised all to seek more training, both in marksmanship and concealed carry techniques. He shied away from pontificating on legal issues, admitting he wasn't a lawyer, and had none of the basic knowledge to advise anyone on specific questions.

Of 25 students, we had a fairly decent spread of experience, some with years of firearm experience, some with limited or no experience. Out of 25, 24 shot well enough in their first round of shooting to qualify, the exception shot well enough in a second round of shooting with some personal instruction by the head instructor.

I think we all came out knowing we were not experts at the end of the class, but in subsequent training I've taken I've seen many of the folks from my class in attendance gaining additional skills.

 

[The Filthy Spitoon]

Wow, fantastic and very educational discussion!

I realize now that many who take the class will probably never actually carry concealed, and simply want a little familiarity with handguns. Or maybe they want the option to carry when the need arises, but aren't day-in-day-out CCW'ers.

I'm thankful for all your input - but especially happy that no one accused me of being an anti-gunner.

 

[Gouranga]

If anything, I think the real benefit from the CCW class is in learning the laws around use of deadly force. I have to admit, despite reading on it, I had a couple surprises and many folks knew nothing and had some seriously dangerous ideas as to when they were permitted to use deadly force.

THIS training probably should be mandatory for gun ownership. I think knowing the laws only helps the cause. Every person who illegally uses deadly force gives the anti's more and more of an argument against CCW.

 

[Gungnir]

Moreover, do you feel safe knowing that this person is out there and could just as likely hit you as a bad guy if some shooting started? Granted, this isn't Dodge City and most will never draw their guns.... but if our economy goes the way of Argentina's, it is not out of the realm of possibiliy to see violent crime become commonplace.

If mandatory training isn't the answer, how do we shame people into competency?

Gun ownership is a right, with any right comes responsibility, if people want to shirk that responsibility, then there are laws in place to protect anyone else hurt, that responsibility by the way isn't to be able to hit their target, just miss any non-targets. Any demands for mandatory training because of danger to others, should really look long and hard at road traffic, where there is mandatory training and is the biggest killer by accident in the US (even after that training). Maybe we should run a mandatory test training course for ladders since falls are the second highest accidental killer.

If our economy goes the way of Argentina's the chances are the people in your CCW who couldn't hit a barn door from the inside, may quickly become your best friends. Do you think that someone who signed up for a CCW would immediately at the first sign of trouble go rioting with their gun? What about the millions of other gun owners (legal and illegal) who haven't got a CCW? Which one's are more likely to go looting and shooting the place up.

Sorry to inject a moment of reality into your phobia's.

 

[tacmedicp94]

In my class I was the only one who shot a perfect score. Most people in the class were not far behind me, but there was one guy who actually dropped his pistol on the firing line!!!

Most folks in the class had handgun experience, but for the few who didn't the instructors were very helpful and watched them pretty closely during the live fire to make sure they didn't cause any safety concerns.

 

[Barryd]

I think most of the new shooters in the"carry' classes had good intentions to improve their skills. Some follow through and some don't.
My class had several that had never held a gun before.

 

[Clipper]

...My instructor was a 25-year deputy sheriff, and HE couldn't shoot worth beans. The only pistol I had to use was my hunting gun, a blackhawk .357, and he was intrigued, having never shot a single action(!), and watching me shoot smiley faces at the ridiculous 7-yard range paper plate target. So I loaded it up and he proceded to land 2 of 6 on the paper. Sad...

 

[azyogi]

Where CCW is required for any type of carry, and ranges are too few or too expensive you seemed too surprised that too few shoot to well. More carry and better access to range time will cure these problems. If I were to wave my magic fix everything wand I'd teach gun safety, and MARKSMANSHIP in elementry school. Just my too cents worth.

 

[jimmyraythomason]

I've never been to a CCW class but I have seen some terrible handgun shots.

 

[basicblur]

Gonna haff to one-up you on this one!

I fired 35 rounds at my target, there were 36 holes in it

When I took my class, we shot 26 times-I had 32 holes in my target.

There were supposed to be 'bout 6 to 8 in the class, but only 2 showed up. My classmate said he'd fired/handled guns etc before, but when the instructor was having us dryfire, I noticed how much his hand started to shake-I thought to myself "if he does this on the range, I don't know where they're going". The instructor told him to watch my hand as it didn't move (I'm an old-timer that practices a bit).

When we got to the range, the targets were set up a pretty good distance away-first shot off sandbags, and mine was dead center @ 6 o'clock (first time I'd fired both my XDSC and a 40), but 2 holes popped in my target (think the other was at 10 o'clock high). I asked the fella which target he was shooting at-he answered correctly-just hit the wrong target!

We shot 26 times-a few off the sandbag, some strong hand, some weak hand. When we retrieved our targets, from 26 rounds I had 32 holes.

FWIW-we were both shooting XD40s-his was 4" barrel, mine 3".

 

[MattTheHat]

When I took mine, I had already shot approximately 2000 rounds through my pistol of choice over the previous few months. In fact, I had also happened to have use the same pistol in a SD situation about 6 months prior to my test. I also used reloads, which the instructor didn't allow (I didn't know this before I arrived.)

He looked at my reloads, and looked at my very well worn Colt 1911, looked at me and said, "you're okay." I scored 299 out of a possible 300.

There were only four of us in the class, and we all knew the instructor, except me. We all shot pretty well, but he grilled the other guys on the line because they weren't used to shooting with a range officer telling them what to do. (Neither was I, but I made darned sure I listened and did exactly as told.) I swear, it was like boot camp!


-Matt

 

[The Filthy Spitoon]

Any demands for mandatory training because of danger to others, should really look long and hard at road traffic, where there is mandatory training and is the biggest killer by accident in the US (even after that training).

I think this is the best argument against mandatory training ever. Bravo!

 

[nofishbob]

I was one of those who had ZERO experience with handguns before attending my CHL class in Texas.

The facility that I took my CHL class offeres a beginner class called "Handguns 101" that I took just prior to my CHL Class.

The instructor went over all the basics from safety, to ammunition selection, to grip, to sight picture, etc. then we went to the range and I shot 100 or so rounds under close supervision with coaching.

When we were done shooting I was instructed on how to properly clean and lube my pistol.

It was absolutely the best money I have ever spent in my short shooting career. It was easy to pass the shooting portion of the CHL exam after I was confident in the basics.

I guess it's hard for a lot of people to just say "I don't know how".

Bob

 

[Dallas Jack]

I was more surprised at the number of people that had problems with their guns especialy the guy with the really nice 1911. There were also a few that had problems making their gun safe. No one shot poorly but they spent alot of time clearing the weapons.
Dallas Jack

 

[Ky Larry]

I'll say they were bad shots in my CCW class. They were so bad I outshot them all, including the instructor, and I stink.

 

[X-Rap]

Our instructor was a Deputy and he had us shoot the same course of fire that the SO does to qualify except he didn't put us under the clock. Most shot it pretty well.

 

[M2 Carbine]

I guess it's hard for a lot of people to just say "I don't know how".

This is why I like teaching females and kids to shoot. They listen and they try to do what you tell them.

My girlfriends could always out-shoot my male friends.


When a friend and his wife were going for their concealed carry I loaned them a Makarov. The wife had never shot a semi auto and had only shot a revolver a couple times. In a couple practice sessions I taught the wife to shoot the Makarov. At the shooting qualification the lady out-shot everyone there, except her husband, who also used my Makarov and got a 250/250.

The lady insisted I sell her that gun. I lost more Makarovs that way.

 

[RS14]

Any demands for mandatory training because of danger to others, should really look long and hard at road traffic, where there is mandatory training and is the biggest killer by accident in the US (even after that training).

I think this is the best argument against mandatory training ever. Bravo!

Really? Do you think that if the training requirement were removed, we'd become better drivers?

It's not totally implausible. Similar arguments have been made about speed limits--remove them, and people will no longer expect others to drive safely, so will drive cautiously to compensate.

But on the other hand, there are countries where hardly anybody gets a license or takes lessons. For example, on the Kabul Gorge highway in Afghanistan, "The cars zoom at astonishing speeds, far faster than would ever be allowed on a similar road in the West, if there was one. Like Formula One drivers, the Afghans dart out along the sharpest of turns, slamming their cars back into their lanes at the first flash of oncoming disaster." The article also notes that "One day last week, 13 accidents unfolded on the road in a mere two hours, all of them catastrophic, nearly all of them fatal. The daylong drizzle made the day slightly more calamitous than most."


In particular, I don't think the analogy to CCW permits even holds. Fear of your fellow drivers can perhaps make you a more cautious driver, but it's hard to imagine how fear of your fellow shooters would make you a better shooter.

 

[Deltaboy1984]

Nope I had a bunch of old dangerous men with 32's and old 38 and a few 45's that had canes and one in a walker that left with the X and 9 ring shot out of the targets.

Any punk that picks on my CCW classmates are going to have a Come to Jesus meeting really quick.

 

[Gungnir]

For example, on the Kabul Gorge highway in Afghanistan, "The cars zoom at astonishing speeds, far faster than would ever be allowed on a similar road in the West, if there was one.

I once rode my motorcycle at (clock speed) of 210 mph on a German autobahn, which is as fast as Formula 1 cars go, and passed 2 police cars while doing it too. They weren't too concerned. It was a good road though, I imagine nothing like Afghanistan, but then I also doubt that the cars are capable of that speed.

Really? Do you think that if the training requirement were removed, we'd become better drivers?

That's not what I said (since I made the original comment), I said driving has mandatory training, and yet road traffic accidents are the largest single cause of accidental death in the US. Showing if nothing else that mandatory training for driving has not necessarily been a glowing success, we don't know (we can all have an opinion, but it will be purely anecdotal) how bad or better accident rates would be if there was no mandatory training, so it's moot. If it were then I'd expect that newly licensed drivers would have the lowest insurance rates, since they have yet to learn any bad habits, this is not the case in my experience.

One other point while driving may be an unenumerated right under the 9th, owning firearms is enumerated, and not open to interpretation. Thus requiring mandatory training is an infringement of that right. Responsible people understand that the drawbacks of rights, are the responsibilities that come along with those rights. Those responsibilities with firearms are if you use your firearm in self defense do not hit any non-targets. There are laws that enforce penalties if you fail to live up to these responsibilities.

I don't fear my fellow shooters, maybe that's why I don't see a need for any mandatory requirement for training. Most people who have no clue about using a firearm and choose not to learn are a self correcting problem.

 

[22-rimfire]

I'm pretty satisfied with the standards as they are now if any training or tests are required for a CCW permit.

It seems like a lot of people are under the impression that you can just point the gun, yank the trigger and the bullet will magically find its target "just like in the movies man!"

I thought that is the way it works.

Actually, I shot a 3" Ruger GP100 with 357's to qualify and I had only test fired the revolver prior to that maybe 20 shots. Qualifying was not a problem although I had some concerns before I learned what the qualification really was. I didn't do any 50 yd shooting with that gun that day. I never shoot that revolver at distances like that. Have othes for that purpose. I was the only shooter who was using full 357 mag loads. Most were 9mm and 22's.

While I was shooting in my indoor lane, one of the floor lights got shot out in front of me. My immediate reaction was.... I did that? There was no way as I was doing two handed shooting in single action mostly. But the fact remains that the light got shot out in front of me.

I shoot quite a bit off and on. Hitting a man sized target at 10 yds or less is generally not a problem. I like to shoot my 41 mags a lot.

 

[FruitCake]

CCW non shooters

In the class that I took it seems like the only important thing was just for everybody to get their CCW permit. From the shooting I saw about 5 students should have not passed in my opinion. I understand we want as many as possible people to get their licence but their should be a point were the instructor should say You need some more practice" very politely and in an encouraging way.

 

[Erik M]

My instructor was a retired Army E7 CoE vet. The only thing that threw me was that he had a loaded Jennings .22 in his back pocket that he took out and showed us. he told the class that anyone that had bought a shiny expensive new gun just for CC was wasting thier time and money and should leave.

"If it goes bang it doesn't matter how cheap it is"

 

[Gungnir]

In the class that I took it seems like the only important thing was just for everybody to get their CCW permit. From the shooting I saw about 5 students should have not passed in my opinion. I understand we want as many as possible people to get their licence but their should be a point were the instructor should say You need some more practice" very politely and in an encouraging way.

Well in that case I am sincerely glad you were not involved in writing the Bill or Rights.

"A well regulated Militia being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms shall not be infringed. If in the opinion of SpaceExplorer31 of East Hartford Connecticut they meet his standards of marksmanship".