water and ricochets

[pax]

Today one of my sons came home from a buddy's house and reported they'd been firing .22 caliber rifles at debris floating on the surface of a private pond.

I was always taught not to ever fire at water, for fear of ricochets. When I said as much to my son (he's sitting here watching me type), he wanted to know if this was REALLY true.

So, fellas, how 'bout it? Anyone got some facts and source material that even a teenager will accept?

Or am I all wet?

Edited to add: my son was acting under the direction of a trusted adult who assured him it was safe -- and there was a backstop -- and there are no solid objects in the home-built pond.

pax

 

[mrmeval]

Fact? Remove the gun from his possesion for a month. That's a fact.

 

[org]

It's true, but the ricochet will be very low angle and if there's a backstop on the other side it shouldn't be a problem.

 

[Maser]

The real issue here isn't really the water causing the riccochets unless you are shooting at a crazy angle. The real issue is you don't know what's under the surface of the water that can cause the bullet to riccochet off of that.

 

[real_name]

Bullets are more likely to ricochet off flat, hard surfaces such as concrete or steel but can occur on almost any surface including grassed soil. Water is notorious for inducing ricochet.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ricochet

 

[HRT]

Pax-
Personal experience...My father has a stock pond with a good back stop and I frequently try to reduce the number of snapping turtles that prey on baby ducks. I can tell you that any relatively horizontal shot into the water is likely to generate a riccochet. Think skipping rocks here, rocks wil skip and scutter even though they are at a much lower velocity and much steeper arc than a bullet. Shooting debris or turtles in a pond is great fun if and only if you have a good back stop.

 

[Preacherman]

At high velocities, water has the consistency of concrete. Parachutists who've landed in water with "roman-candled" chutes can testify to this - broken ankles and legs are a routine occurrence. If their chute fails to open altogether, and they hit the water at terminal velocity, they don't survive.

Bullets hit the water far, far faster than human terminal velocity - so the water acts just like a concrete surface in "reflecting" them. Only if shot at an acute angle, near perpendicular to the water, will they "dig in" and drop to the bottom of the pond. Any shallow angle will cause them to deflect and ricochet.

I used to teach shooters this by taping a couple of sheets from the daily newspaper to wooden uprights on the bank of a pond, and having them shoot at the water about 10' in front of the paper. Every shot made a hole in the paper, some at interesting angles, showing that the bullets were not only ricocheting, but also keyholing. You might want to try something similar with your kids.

 

[pax]

I just edited my first post to provide a little more accurate picture about what was going on.

pax

 

[AJ Dual]

What's on the other side of the pond? How much more distance before the property line? What's the lay of the land.

That's whats key.

In the right circumstances, plinking over water can be very fun, and a good way to enhance marksmanship because it provides visual feedback and lets you spot your rounds. Keep in mind that shooters shoot all sorts of "no-no's" like metal and rock, but people shoot plate targets in recognized shooting sports, and people "bust rocks" as a form of plinking all the time. So shooting water is like most things, context is everything.

Even with a "perfect" riccochet, that bullet has lost lots of energy, (The hydrostatic shock "concrete" analogy is partly true, but also, if there's any splash, the mass of displaced water is all energy robbed from that round.) and all-lead rounds like .22 LR if they do skip, are most likely extremely deformed, and losing energy quick. Also, the impact has to be very, very flat to the surface of the water, otherwise the round is just going to dive.

Shooting water can be extremely irresponsible, or very safe. I would just say that an adult needs to have a look at the lay of the land the body of water sits on. (after your edit, this clearly was so) If it's a populated lake, or a river you don't own the other side of etc. then it's definitely a bad idea. (obviously...)

"Never shoot at water" is a very generalized rule for dummies that can't think criticaly about other factors, like what lies beyond the water, how large the body of water is, what caliber you're using etc.

Shooting into water is not a hard and fast no-no like shooting into the air. Just be sure to impress on your son that a responsible adult shooter should make the determination that the body of water and what lies beyond it is a safe area, until such time as he's "the responsible adult shooter".

 

[Standing Wolf]

...my son was acting under the direction of a trusted adult who assured him it was safe -- and there was a backstop -- and there are no solid objects in the home-built pond.

If 'twere my lad, I'd not hold him accountable, but would make it clear he's not to repeat the experiment. I'd guess it's probably safe most of the time, but it's a risk that could easily be avoided simply by shooting at better targets.

 

[hso]

Pax,

The "trusted" adult is wrong. I bounced some .38 rounds onto a neighbor's property when I was around 15. He came down to the cove with a pistol in his back pocket and politely explained the problem. Last time I ever did it.

 

[Mal H]

What Preacherman said. At the velocity of a .22 bullet (or any bullet), the surface of the water might as well be steel if the angle of incidence is shallow (depending somewhat on the state of agitation of the surface). The bullet could leave the surface at approximately the same speed that it hit it. In that respect it is even worse than a ricochet off of a rock, for example. The rock will usually reduce the kinetic energy of the bullet somewhat, the water may or may not (as AJ Dual said, the amount of splash will give a good clue as to how much energy was lost). Actually, this is still due to the angle of incidence. Rocks and the like are usually not completely flat like the surface of the water generally is.

If you know for sure what is beyond the pond for the same distance as if you were shooting at a 45 deg angle, then it should be safe. When in doubt (the least of amount of doubt), don't do it.

 

[Medusa]

Actually, at high velocities the steel is much more softer/compressible than any liquid, currently water. ie the water is a harder surface than any rock/metal due extremly low compressibility, thus more prone to deflect bullets at shallow angles (and if to shoot from the shore then the angle will be shallow enough). Besides, if the surface isn't mirror smooth, but has low waves then the bullets may not be deflected only back up, but to right/left also. So you must make sure that the area cone (at least 45 degrees on both sides) is safe and empty and has plenty of backstop.

 

[sm]

Agree with Preacherman.

I have illustrated this two ways.

1) Shotgun, remove the lead pellets from a target load, replace with popcorn kernals, re-crimp. Best to have new-paper or similar as backstop when you fire at a floating target in the pond.

Visually the "pellets" will be seen skipping - holes in the paper confirm.

Note :
Folks that do not reload shotgun shells, get someone to do these for you, these "popcorn loads are Great teaching, training tools!
I prefer to use a .410, simply because, just a like a .22 , used most often by kids, and "being little" needs re-enforcement is it lethal and serious ( I shoot a full, un-opened soda can, shaken to illustrate the .22 short).

2) Speer plastic training bullets will do the same thing above.
Last time I used a small creek.
Across the creek on the bank
I took a busted 8x10 picture frame [only the wood, propped by sticks] with tissue paper covering the opening. Behind this I strung string, and put newpaper - two sections long.

Then I shot into the creek and I missed the frame...that plastic bullet ricocheted way off to the right, and hit the upper portion near edge of paper.

"This means we cannot shoot into or around a creek huh?" So stated the kids.
"Yep"



I got kidded for missing a target 'that close' - sometimes missing is a good thing...

Steve

 

[gaston_45]

Hi pax and pax's son.

Have you ever skipped a rock on the water? It's the same principle and just as hard with a rifle. The angle has to be just right to get the skip, which is really all a richochet is. We have a severe Nutria problem around here, small beaver- like animals that dig holes in the dikes. The local past time, and really a method of survival for those behind the dikes, is to shoot the " nutes" with rifles, usually 22's and now the 17's. Sure, it can be a problem if you are shooting at low angles, but ONLY if you ignore the gun safety rules... know your target and what is beyond....

Nothing beyond the pond for a few hundred yards? I don't see a problem at all.... but the I AM a duck hunter. Can't hunt ducks unless you shoot near the water....

 

[goblin357]

Once when shooting into a stream (that's in the bottom of a narrow valley) with .22 tracer, nearly all bounced off the water and into the bank, and that's got to be an angle of 30 odd degrees, so it doesn't have to be just shallow angles.

.308 tracer doesn't bounce though, no matter how many you shoot

 

[Sinsaba]

I am puzzled. I don't really doubt what all of you are saying about bullets ricochets on water but I'm not sure that I accept the premise that they will always or even frequently do so.

I only have one reason to doubt the frequency. There was an episode of Myth Busters where they were trying to bust the myth of water stopping a bullet. They tried two shots into a column of water, the second was from a shotgun and it broke the tank for the water.

They moved the rest of the testing to a swimming pool. Since they didn't have the depth they thought they would need they shot at an angle. The angle appeared to be on the order of 45 degrees or maybe a bit less. None of the shots tested caused a ricochet.

As I said, I don't doubt it can happen I just question the frequency.

 

[Mal H]

45 degrees is not a shallow angle. We're talking on the order of 15 degrees or less. At 45 degrees most if not all bullets will enter the water and stay.

Shooting at a calm pond surface at around a 10 degree angle, the frequency of ricochet will be near 100%.

 

[TallPine]

A long time ago I remember reading a true story about a young woman who was fatally shot in the head while driving along a freeway beside some big bay (Tampa? I really don't remember where it was...)

They finally traced it to a couple guys out in a boat plinking on the water, seemingly a long and safe distance from the shore

 

[Vern Humphrey]

I can tell you by person experience you will get ricochets off water.

When I was a boy, I was sitting in our old pickup, and my Uncle Carroll was sitting beside it, leaning up against a saddle. My cousin and brother were shooting at snapping turtles in the pond. We weren't paying attention to where they were, and they weren't paying attention to us.

Suddenly there was the unmistakable sound of a bullet -- I though it had come through the open window of the truck -- but Uncle Carroll showed showed me where his saddle was sprayed with dirt, and you could see the little trench dug by the bullet on impact.

Nowadays, if I have to shoot something in the pond, I use a .22 Hornet with a very fragile bullet.

 

[JohnBT]

My cousin and I used to skip .22LR bullets off a farm pond at our targets. Not real accurate, but they do skip. We had a mountain for a backstop. We would also launch tin cans with firecrackers and shoot them in the air with .22's.

John

 

[googol]

Not long ago, a friend who's a lawyer described a case involving a kid at an area campground. The kid was screwing around, shooting a .22 into a pond. One shot skipped across the pond and hit another camper in the gut. No serious damage was done, but the shooter was arrested on serious charges and spent a long time up to his eyes in expensive legal hassles.

 

[Car Knocker]

Way back in my Navy days, when firing 40-mm at surface targets we would often see a shell hit the water 2 or 3 times as it receded into the distance.

 

[Camp David]

PAX=>

I was always taught not to ever fire at water, for fear of ricochets.

I grew up and learned how to shoot a rifle shooting at water targets!!!

Vermont has a spring season on muskrats as soon as ice out occurs! The 'rat season normally runs two weeks and hunting them involves using canoe in the flooded swamps looking for the telltale "V" shaped wake. The weapon of choice is a .22 short or long rifle cartridge; I used .22 shorts. My rifle was a Browning BL-22 with a removeable scope (removable because at dusk it was nearly worthless). Idea is to hit the muskrat just behind the "v" wake, in his nose... if you think this is easy, from a tippy canoe, you just don't understand! Hitting 'rat in body makes pelt half-price so nose shots are necessary. Indeed, accurate land shooters often fail at 'rat shooting... the sport requires snap shooting under extreme conditions...Often times, particularly first day or two of season, my brother and I filled canoe with muskrats (made a small fortune selling pelts) and had a lot of fun...I consider my brother one of the best rifle shooters in history (okay I know that is quite a boast but he could hit a target the size of a quarter at about 20 yards consistantly under snap conditions from a tippy canoe)... doubt it? Try it...

The point of this story:

I doubt I would have one ricochet per season if that!

Perhaps with a higher-caliber but .22s don't seem to richocet, at least in my opinion, from practical experience.

 

[mrapathy2000]

was a incident were a man had a C&R Rifle and took his boat out and was firing targets in the water. few miles away was a highway a lady driving on in died when the bullet skipped repeatedly off the water. whats more incredible is the lady was inside a car with her window barely open the bullet traveled through the opening hit her in the head. happened in new england area dont recall where exactly. car was found on side of road with lady non responsive no noticeable blood.

another incident was a kid sitting in a safe area of a indoor range. guy shooting competition in outdoor range had his gun double nobody noticed they were shooting close to the backstop with no berm due to the fact they were shooting closer than they should berm was either over them or behind them. the double shot went over the backstop into the top half of the building through a closet ricocheted off a plenum ceiling tile and hits the kid in the head. turns out the building had numerous holes in aluminum siding was highway patroll officers son. turns out the backstop was little short. happened in Texas.