Weapon Disarms & an Urban Legend

[El Tejon]

Last night in boxing club we were practicing our weapon disarms, when the instructor admonished a young lion not to simply hand back the training gun to the "BG." He stated that he had heard of a police officer who disarmed a bad guy and handed back the weapon to the bad guy. The officer's partner then shot the BG.

The instructor then turned to me to verify? No clue. What say you?

 

[BigG]

Sounds like a good plot for a movie! Seriously, one PO I know has intimated that such things have happened.

 

[Double Naught Spy]

Well, that is sort of how folklore works. A given story gets passed around and being factual or probably factual. So the idea that it has been intimated to you that such events have happened does nothing to confirm or deny the event being real. What it does do is to verify that the story isn't simply isolated to El Tejon's instructor.

I don't understand the story, El Tejon. An officer disarmed a bad guy and then handed the gun back where upon the bad guy was shot by the partner. Was it that the officer mistakenly handed back the gun or intentionally?

Also, just exactly how was it that the young lion was supposed to return the handgun during disarming practice? What is the proper way to re-arm your practice partner with a plastic gun?

 

[Tim Burke]

What is the proper way to re-arm your practice partner with a plastic gun?

Handing it back to him shouldn't be a problem... provided you are training for appropriate follow through. Appropriate follow through for a disarm includes creating distance, performing a T-R-B on the new acquisition or drawing your own weapon, covering the training partner, scanning and moving to cover as available. If one is simply performing the disarm and handing the weapon back to the partner then you are training to do exactly that, regardless of whether or not it has actually happened.

 

[FPrice]

You Fight Like You Train

If you train to do something a particular way, odds are when you have to do it for real you will do as you trained. So if you train to disarm someone, but then stop the exercise and hand the plastic gun back to your opponent, then you run the risk, adrenaline and danger notwithstanding, of handing the gun back to the bad guy.

The proper way to train for something like this is to include your follow-up moves. For example, putting the bad guy on the ground to cuff or immobilize them.

Bill Jordan told the story in his book about a fellow Border Patrol agent who got involved in a firefight one night. After the fight (which apprarently involved several reloads of his service revolver) someone asked him why his pocket was bulging so much. It turned out that the agent, an experienced bullseye pistol shooter, had unconciously dumped the empty shells from his revolver into his hand and pocketed them. Right in the middle of a gunfight.

So this story may be an urban legend, but it has a real lesson for all to learn.

 

[Tim Burke]

So this story may be an urban legend, but it has a real lesson for all to learn.

I'm not familiar with the Jordan story, but there is an infamous version of that story involving the California Highway Patrol, the Newhall incident, in which the 4 officers involved did not survive. According to Ayoob, official sources deny it, but sources in the CHP claim that one of the dead officers was found with his empties in his pocket.

I note that FPrice's follow through on a disarm is different from mine. I suspect that Mr. Price is answering the question from a LEO perspective, while I was answering from a civilian perspective. The important thing is to train the follow through.

 

[El Tejon]

00, 1) purportedly the officer disarmed the BG but in training had just handed back the weapon to his partner. He did the same thing "on the street" because of the alleged ingrained muscle memory response.

2) the way we are instructed in boxing club is like Tim said: to create distance, rather than just hand it back, after the disarm while performing a Type I (tap-rack-maybebang) clear, then scan, etc. YMMV.

Anyone else have any info on this? New one on me and I thought I had heard it all.

 

[Gabe Suarez]

Ladies and Gents,

You will do as you trained. I'm not certain about the story about the gun, but I am aware of a story about a cop who was fighting against an aggressor and the thing degenrated into a ground fight. The good guy had the bad guy in a submission hold and was winning, but the bad guy tapped him on the arm (tapping is equated with giving up in this type of training). The good guy released his hold, as he'd been conditioned to do, only to realize this was real.

I got this story from the DT instructor of the agency where this happened.

I teach a pause at the end of the technique. This means that you release pressure slightly (not continue with it as you'd do in combat), and pause. Then slowly release and recover. With the gun scenario, I suggest disarming, creating distance (or aggressing the adversary as the case may be) ,and then pausing after you've dominated the scene, before giving the gun back. Its the same kind of focus we have when we do the after action assessment after shooting. The japanese call this Zanshin and can be described as lingering focus.

Cheers,


Gabe Suarez
Suarez International USA, Inc.
htp://www.suarezinternational.com

 

[BerettaNut92]

The good guy had the bad guy in a submission hold and was winning, but the bad guy tapped him on the arm (tapping is equated with giving up in this type of training). The good guy released his hold, as he'd been conditioned to do, only to realize this was real

Not that I'VE ever done that before.... Heck when I started chopsockey I had to condition myself to hit my friends. I spent my whole life trying to be polite

 

[El Tejon]

Gabe, interesting, can you tell us which agency? Good point about the slow release. We do this in our drills as well as Chin Na.

Well, if Gabe has not heard of this, maybe it is just an urban legend? Not doubt a gun rag is to blame somewhere.

Skunk, do you know any chopsockey weapon forms for your banjo?

 

[Erik]

People have died ensuring the tidy deposit of brass into their pockets during a gunfight.

I have witnessed people pulling their punches in very real fights.

I admit to pulling blows myself, once that I am aware of. The guy actually got mad, stopped, and walked off upset that I wouldn't fight him for "real." Witnesses thought I was toying with him. Nope- Just hitting like I did in class. I changed classes...

So it wouldn't surprise me if someone handed a weapon back out of reflex.

 

[Aikibiker]

I've heard of that incident or one similar.

I read about it in either Marc Macyoung's book, "Taking it to the Streets" or Peyton Quin's, "Real Fighting". Either are good reads and I highly suggest them to anyone interested in self defense.

My Sensei also related a similar story to us involving an Aikidoka from the dojo he trained in in NYC handing a knife back to an aggressor just as he had many times in the dojo. Obviously he had us practicing differently.

 

[FPrice]

Tim Burke...

"I suspect that Mr. Price is answering the question from a LEO perspective, while I was answering from a civilian perspective"

Thank you for the compliment but I am neither an LEO in real life nor do I play one on TV or THR. But my answer was framed in the perspective of the alleged incident that started this thread.

I think most of us are saying the same thing from slightly different perspectives. And that is, be aware that a real fight does not end like it does in the dojo and do NOT stop fighting before your opponent is no longer a threat.

 

[WYO]

This isn't exactly the same situation as yours, but an academy classmate of mine ended up in a wrestling match with an armed BG who had just shot another cop in the face at close range. After a short foot chase, a wrestling match ensues. Buddy grabs the BG's gun and shoots a round into the BG with his (buddy's) gun, then lets go of the BG's gun in the erroneous belief that the fight is over. BG then puts one round into buddy's trauma plate. Buddy then empties his revolver into the BG, ending the fight (forever). I wasn't an eyewitness, but I was primary on the call.

 

[Denny Hansen]

Had a newspaper clippling mailed to me a couple of years ago:
LEO in NC forced to shoot bad guy. Fired two rounds and holstered his revolver. Problem was, both shots missed and he had to start all over again from scratch and way behind the power curve.

Fight like we train? Yep!

 

[Andrew Rothman]

Fighting as trained

My CCW instructor related a story of a cop who got into a shootout with a BG in a suburban shopping mall. He fired his automatic at the BG, then immediately knelt and began to pick up his brass from the floor as he did in training... before securing the BG, rendering aid, etc.


Matt

 

[Matthew Temkin]

I read that story about 10 years ago, but I forget the source.
To me it seemed very plausable, and now when I teach/pratice disarms I follow through as if it is a real incident.
Stranger things have happened when it's for real.

 

[wingnutx]

I've heard of people letting their opponent go (in a real fight!) when tapped. They may only start to let go before catching themselves, but that's all it takes.

 

[litman252]

Man, reading all this makes you think how you train, shoot all 8, reload and shoot again??
I can believe all these stories, however, I wrestled for 9 years and never let a guy up in a match like I did in practise, of course his clothes were diffrent colores than mine.

Something to think about at any rate...........
Tony

 

[tetleyb]

The story related to me was as follows:

After line up training, two officers would practice weapon take aways. When one officer would take the others firearm, he would hand it back to his partner. They would train like this for about 10-15 mins a day.

One of the two officers had a gun pointed at him and he did, in fact, take the handgun away from the suspect. Just as he trained though, he immediately gave the handgun back to the suspect, and the suspect subsequently shot and killed the officer.

Whether or not this is urban legend, the truth, etc, I do not know. However, alot of other people here have made valuable points: You do what you are trained to do.

 

[Quartus]

from a LEO perspective, while I was answering from a civilian perspective

LEOS are civilians, unless they're MILITARY police.


Except in a police state, of course.




The Newhall incident is well documented, and led to a lot of changes in training.