Wearing Out Firearms

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Gridley

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This appears to be the best place for this thread, if it belongs somewhere else please accept my apologies.

I'm curious how many people here have truly *worn out* firearms, and how much usage it took.

To clarify, I'm interested in firearms (be they rifles, pistols, shotguns, etc.) that you used until they were truly no longer worth repairing, not just ones where you needed to replace a spring or some such. Also not interested in firearms that were broken if wear wasn't the primary cause ("I ran over it with a ten ton forklift" isn't what I'm looking for).

So, what firearms have you worn out, and how many years, rounds, etc. did it take? What led you to decide the firearm was worn out? What did you do with it?

Thanks!
 
If you are talking about truly "wearing out" a gun, not just a barrel or bolt or other replaceable part, you are talking about shooting it until the receiver is no longer serviceable. That takes upwards of 50,000 rounds at a minimum, some designs may require 100,000 rounds, based on data from military testing.

Assuming you shoot an average of 100 rounds a month in that one weapon, that would take a minimum of forty-one years, and $10,000 in ammunition.
 
I have tried but not quite there yet. I know guys that have worn out USPSA guns or at least they have become like like that old Ax. Its been a fine old ax, it on its fourth handle and third head. At some point you replace enough parts is it still the original gun?
 
This will largely be dependent on the firearm. My LCP has a little over 1,500 rounds through it and I can already tell it's getting loose and starting to show it's age. I don't know at which point it will truly be worn out, but I'm planning on replacing it for carry duty before it hits the 3,000 mark. It's cheap peace of mind for me.

Of course 3,000 rounds on any other firearm I own is practically nothing.
 
If you are talking about truly "wearing out" a gun, not just a barrel or bolt or other replaceable part, you are talking about shooting it until the receiver is no longer serviceable. That takes upwards of 50,000 rounds at a minimum, some designs may require 100,000 rounds, based on data from military testing.

Assuming you shoot an average of 100 rounds a month in that one weapon, that would take a minimum of forty-one years, and $10,000 in ammunition.

As lysanderxiii points out, guys running 100 rounds a month aren't wearing out their guns. However, there are folks out there shooting a lot more than that. I currently budget for about 650 rounds of 9mm per month and may step that up to about 1,000 per month next year. Of course, even my figures are chump change compared to guys sending 25,000 or more downrange per year.
 
Serious competitive shooters are about the only ones logging the kinds of round counts concentrated on a small number of guns that end up truly wearing out guns. Different guns and gun types "wear out" in different ways. High-powered overbore rifle shooters may wear out a barrel in a single year of shooting - but then replace it. USPSA pistol shooters may get several years out of their barrels, and 2-3 replacement barrels' life out of each slide, and replace a slide once or twice on a given frame. Revolver shooters use up the cylinder/hand interface. IDK what gives out for the high-volume skeet and trap guys.

But very few people ever get their guns to this point. Most guns could go through 5 generations worth of "normal person" shooting and still be basically OK with a spring-and-small-wear-item overhaul.
 
My highest round centerfire that I can loosely track is a .357 revolver. I know how many thousand count of bullets I have loaded for it at least within a few hundred. I know the count is over 30k. It is still tight.
 
My highest round centerfire that I can loosely track is a .357 revolver. I know how many thousand count of bullets I have loaded for it at least within a few hundred. I know the count is over 30k. It is still tight.
What make and model?
 
As lysanderxiii points out, guys running 100 rounds a month aren't wearing out their guns. However, there are folks out there shooting a lot more than that. I currently budget for about 650 rounds of 9mm per month and may step that up to about 1,000 per month next year. Of course, even my figures are chump change compared to guys sending 25,000 or more downrange per year.

There are actually a fair number of people in that latter group. I'm not currently among them, but I have several friends who shoot about 1k per month in competition and put about twice that many downrange in practice. If you know someone who is a GM in USPSA/IPSC, there's a good bet that, at least at some prior point in their life, they were burning ammo at that rate for a period of at least 6-24 months. There are exceptions, and it's easier to maintain than initially build that level of proficiency, but for most people, they just have to have a huge number of reps to get to a very high level.
 
Gridley: excellent question.Somewhere far over 19,000 rds. in a Norinco MAK 90 AK clone. If this US Army veteran's primary tactical rifle wears out he will tell us.

He is "Regular Guy Training LLC" on YouTube.

But if you want to sell a gun, external appearance seems to be all that people care about.
Most guns (in the eyes of guys shopping), must be a "Trophy Wife".

I would not mind a local gun show gent's really worn (100% German) Sig 220 as a shooter/collector, but if I bought it and became incapacitated, my wife would almost have to give it away, due to the unattractive appearance.
 
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I don't shoot enough to wear a gun out, and I own too many.

This will largely be dependent on the firearm. My LCP has a little over 1,500 rounds through it and I can already tell it's getting loose and starting to show it's age. I don't know at which point it will truly be worn out, but I'm planning on replacing it for carry duty before it hits the 3,000 mark. It's cheap peace of mind for me.

Of course 3,000 rounds on any other firearm I own is practically nothing.

I could not imagine shooting 3K rounds in my LCP. I've owned my LCP for over 8 years and I might have 500-600 rounds through it. Little, tiny guns like that are going to be more delicate. I agree, my duty guns I can put 3-400 in a range trip and that's pretty much nothing. I get tired of loading mags.
 
IDK what gives out for the high-volume skeet and trap guys.
Most high volume skeet and trap shooters are using over/unders (once you start shooting at that volume, even the cost of nice guns like Perazzis look reasonable next to your ammo bill). Apart from regular maintenance items (springs and such in the trigger groups) and replaceable parts, the only real thing to watch out for is cratering around the firing pins.

With good guns you're still looking at hundreds of thousands of rounds before that takes place. And when it does it can be repaired by milling out that section of the breech face and putting in new (harder) metal.

Maybe the locking mechanism would be another thing to look out for, but I've never seen or heard of one breaking due to high round count.

Semi-auto shotguns used in competition do have their failures occasionally, but generally those are just parts that can be replaced.
 
I have too many interesting guns to ever wear one out. But I have some stories.
FLG has a worn and cracked .38 Super slide on his shelf. A USPSA GM claimed to have gotten 110,000 out of it.
A PPC shooter has worn out two guns. One, he simply shot the barrel out with 150,000 wadcutters; a new barrel and a little tightening and it was back in business. The other lasted as long, but it was built to a proprietary design and the gunsmith is deceased, so the gun was retired.
The guy who bought the Citori trap gun from me took a good many years to wear it out, he just bought another.
A skeet shooter bought an already well used Krieghoff. It was a bit loose and got looser, so he sent it in. For $440 it was made mechanically as new. They told him that covered all wear parts and could be repeated indefinitely.
 
I have an AR (M4 type) that have shot out 3 good barrels on. I have also had one bolt head failure on this gun, and replaced numerous parts in the lower- to include a front takedown pin that somehow broke. In the military, M60 machineguns had a fairly short service life. As do the M9 pistols- in my unit, they were usually worn out after about 18 months. The older 870 police wingmasters lasted longer than the later express versions. Sniper rifles like the MK 13 and SR25/M110 go a couple of years before they end up getting a complete rebuild. M4 barrels generally lasted about a year. Receivers don't really wear out in my experience.
 
I have tried but not quite there yet. I know guys that have worn out USPSA guns or at least they have become like like that old Ax. Its been a fine old ax, it on its fourth handle and third head. At some point you replace enough parts is it still the original gun?

Well, yes, there is the "axe of my ancestors" paradox. I guess legally speaking a firearm could only be "worn out" if whichever part had the serial number had worn out.

Of course when you talk about welding I start to question whether that's really an economical repair (yes, it probably costs less than a new firearm... but how many rounds do you get out of the weld job vs. getting the new gun?).

For myself, I'm sure I've put the most rounds through my Browning Buckmark, but that's still only 10,000 (give or take a few thousand). I do need to replace the lock washer on the rear take down screw, but it still shoots and functions fine.

Noting that I am talking about "it isn't economical to fix this anymore", not "this can't be fixed," thanks for everyone who's replied so far, and I am enjoying the discussion.
 
Of course when you talk about welding I start to question whether that's really an economical repair (yes, it probably costs less than a new firearm... but how many rounds do you get out of the weld job vs. getting the new gun?).

I think what often happens is that competition guns get to the point where they are kind of worn out.* Then, one of two things happens:
  • They get relegated to a backup/dry-fire-practice/loaner gun for the competitor and hang around forever; or
  • They get sold to a newer competitor who is super-psyched to get a gun of X quality/brand/type that they otherwise could not afford, and they put some money into it... money that they original, heavy user could have spent, but will instead go to the next gun to be worn out. This can work well for both individuals, particularly if the new buyer is a lower-volume shooter. They may put a little money into the gun and have it last the rest of their life.
*Note that this doesn't mean worn to the point of being unsafe to shoot or incapable of stabilizing a bullet... just worn to the point where it's not quite as accurate as it once was, or where they're having to burn significantly more powder to reach the same velocity. Serious competitors expect their guns to do more than just go "bang." They have to work well.
 
There were a handful of locals who wore out their early-production KelTec P32 pocket pistols; somewhere around 5K rounds they experienced slide and/or frame breakage. Those are about the only guns that I'd ever seen that had been shot to the point of destruction through normal use.
 
The question of what is a reasonable lifetime is a very important issue. The buyer wants an MTBF of 1,000,000 years with an infinite lifetime, for $20.00. Thirty bucks if the gun is shiny. The manufacturer has very different expectations. Now any darn fool can build a twenty or thirty pound single shot firearm that never breaks, the real art is making one as light as possible.

From what I have read, the early M1911's had to pass a 6,000 round endurance test. To pass a 6,000 round endurance test, obviously the pistol has to be built so all pass this test, which means the pistol will function longer on the average. These numbers probably came from the experience of the military and estimates of a reasonable number of rounds per year. It could have come from the Arsenals and Shooting Teams, where round counts, pistols rebuilt, etc, were considered. I believe a case can be made that the firearm should last as long as the barrel, as barrels typically wear out first. So with the soft steels of the day, after 5000 or 6000 rounds the barrels would be shot out, the pistol send back to Depot for overhaul. Once at Depot any part could be replaced if need be.

Something to note, the early M1911's were made of plain carbon steels and were not even heat treated. Gunsmiths state that the parts are dead soft. By the time WW2 rolls around, from what I have heard, slides and frames are still plain carbon steels but case hardened for wear. They will last a bit longer.

I got to shoot with the All Guard, they are using WW2 era frames, maybe other parts, in their Bullseye Pistols. I talked with the Armorer and forgot all the details other than these slides and frames have to be refitted in time spans equal to years. He had wear criteria and I forgot what it was, I think it was frame rail thickness. Frame rails are peened, then the slide and frame are assembled with a hammer and grinding compound in the slide rails. The slide is beat back and forth till experience says, the fit is just right. Not too tight and not loose at all.

I also talked to the AMU shooters. I asked about pistol durability, etc. Seems their frames and slides were made by Caspian Arms. No one on the firing line knew how old they were other than these things had been around before anyone joined the team. Some guys thought they might have been made in the 1970s or 80's. I talked to the gunsmith David Sams about these pistols, he claims he helped set them up in the middle 1990's.

I asked the AMU shooters how many rounds they shoot through the things, well the AMU shooter said about 5,000 to 7,000 rounds. I asked, "per year"?, no, "per month!"

AMU shooters wore out triggers, sears, in time periods close to a year, if my recollection was right. Barrels took several years. Springs were replaced frequently. No one had ever seen a frame or slide crack or break, and none had every required refitting, within the experience (around six years max) of the shooters on the line. That is just exceptional.

There are a number of differences between vintage M1911's and these modern era pistols. The first is alloy steels. Alloy steels are so superior to the plain carbon steels that were in exclusive use up through WW2 in firearms. When arms manufacturer's first used nickel steel, such as Winchester, they bragged about it. After WW2, even though that was vacuum tube era, everyone knew and understood that the material properties of alloys were so superior that only legacy designs and lazy firearms manufacturers used plain carbon steels in structural elements. In the 1990’s, the semi conductor revolution began to affect manufacturing. CNC machining has produced the tightest factory pistols that have ever been made. Pick up a Kimber, a Range Master, or a Les Baer. They don't rattle. The old Colt series 70's and 80's rattled when new. The combination of better steels, cleaner steels, and better machining have extended the lifetime of firearms, given the same loads.

I have talked to several serious Bullseye shooters who also shot revolvers. One, his custom. 38 Special barrel was still shooting two inch groups at 50 yards with 600,000 rounds through it. The loads he used were 148 LSWC with 2.7 grains Bullseye. This guy had won multiple PPC championships with his K frame S&W. The other shooter had around 250,000 rounds through his S&W K frame revolver. Both said extractor stars wore at some point, their revolvers lost their timing, and they had to send their pistols back to S&W. I think cylinder hands also wore. One guy had a S&W hammer mounted firing pin break. I assume they replaced springs along the way. I was told that Colt revolvers were very rare in PPC as they got out of tune much earlier than the S&W. It had to do with the timing of the lockup. Colts locked up during hammer fall, S&W’s locked up before hammer fall. Colts were much more sensitive to wear in the cylinder hand and extractor star. The PPC champ said that rebarreling a S&W with a Colt barrel was fairly common as the Colt barrels were tighter and shot more accurately. He called the conversions “Smoults”.

Barrels are going to wear out with jacketed bullets. I have no idea of the fatigue life of a barrel, they are a pressure vessel, I expect at some point they will rupture. A low pressure cartridge such as a 45 ACP I expect the barrel will never fatigue rupture before the rifling is worn smooth. However, I am aware of a shooter who had a vintage 30-06 barrel rebored to 35 Whelen. The rifle barrel had gone through its normal service life, was old steel, several ounces had to be removed to enlarge the tube to 358 diameter, making it weaker. The shooter fired a couple of factory 35 Whelen rounds, the barrel burst, and the owner is mad at the barrel maker. The barrel maker blames the owner and ammunition, the owner blames the barrel maker. I don't know the end of this, but the barrel maker is assumed to know more than the customer, but in my opinion, both should have known better. I am of the opinion that once a barrel is shot out, it ought to be replaced with a nice new barrel made from nice new materials.

Incidentally, I recently had my 1960's fire extinguishers recharged. I learned a lot about fire extinguishers, and I am no expert on the things. Fire extinguishers are pressure vessels, they fatigue fracture, I found the example of a guy whose fire extinguisher blew up, was he was carrying it, and he died from the shrapnel.

When fire extinguishers are inspected, how often, and how often they are pressure tested, is a very complicated process. You can look here for times, which depend on a lot of things.

https://www.approvedprotection.com/...fire-extinguisher-maintenance-schedule-guide/

Technician said my fire extinguisher was made to a 5/3 safety factor. If max allowed pressure is 1800 psia, which is probable based on ICC 3AAI 1800 stamping, than a pressure test of 3000 psia corresponds to a safety factor of 5/3.

My fire extinguisher was put into this armored tank which was filled with water. The fire extinguisher is in water at atmospheric pressure. What they do, is they pressurize the fire extinguisher, with water, and measure the amount of water, atmospheric pressure, that leaves the tank.

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The pressure test consists of adding water to the fire extinguisher, increasing the pressure to 3000 psia, which is the maximum structural pressure, (remember maximum operating pressure is 1800 psia) and measuring the amount of water that leaves the armored tank, and the amount of water that is drawn back into the tank, when the internal pressure of the fire extinguisher is brought back to ambient. There are pass fail criteria for the amount of expansion allowed, and the amount of contraction allowed.

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There is a 35 psia blow out valve on the water tank, to relieve the pressure if a pressurized fire extinguisher fails. If the tank fails, the valve ruptures, and all the water in the tank is blown against a wall. Hopefully sparing the test operator!. Of course, I had to ask, "do fire extinguishers fail?". Why yes, they do.

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This is the paint blasted from the wall when fire extinguishers fail their maximum rated pressure test.

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You know, if fire extinguishers blow, there is no reason to assume that barrels, which are also pressure vessels, are going to last forever. Barrels carry more of the pressure induced load, than any other structure in a firearm. More of the cartridge case is supported by the barrel, than is supported by the locking mechanism. The guy who paid someone to rebore his 30-06 barrel to 35 Whelen should have had enough sense to have a new barrel installed, but the barrel maker is the one who is assumed to know better. He has the product liability. Manufacturer's are assumed to be expert in these things. Anyone reboring old barrels is taking a risk. You don't know the quality of the old steel, you don't know what loads were fired down the things. Even famous gunwriters should know better: P.O Ackley said no one knew what loads firearms were designed to, therefore it was fine and dandy to fire his non pressure tested loads, (around 80,000, to 90,000 psia) down firearms that were designed for 50,000 psia. Actually, it was Ackley who did not know how firearms were designed, but he has a lot of followers who think he knew what he was talking about.

Bolt action rifles, I have had the bolt cocking cam wear out on a Mauser 98. I used the action as an XTC rifle, it was in 30-06. The thing went through three barrels, and was dry fired tens of thousands of times. Whatever case hardening on the cocking cam wore. After that the firing pin nose galled the cocking cam, the rifle was hard to operate from the shoulder, and so I replaced the bolt.

I had the firing pin cocking nose piece break on a M70 target rifle. It was on its second or third barrel, had been dry fired an ungodly amount. I was able to buy Tubbs M70 parts and the rifle is functional

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You can find pictures of cracked bolt lugs on all sorts of actions. All bolt actions, and semi auto’s will crack lugs in time. The lugs on a AR15 typically start cracking lugs between 10,000 and 30,000 rounds. The better made AR15 bolts will last 30,000 rounds before cracking. Depends on the materials and heat treatment.
 
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*Note that this doesn't mean worn to the point of being unsafe to shoot or incapable of stabilizing a bullet... just worn to the point where it's not quite as accurate as it once was, or where they're having to burn significantly more powder to reach the same velocity. Serious competitors expect their guns to do more than just go "bang." They have to work well.

Agreed, and that was part of where I was going with this. I'd say even a 1% failure to cycle or fire with decent ammunition means the firearm is in serious need of maintenance or repair. A CC firearm should be ten times that good with its intended defensive load. I've fired WW2 ammunition (and WW2 vintage weapons) with much higher failure rates than that and didn't consider it a problem... but that was for fun, not for competition or defense.
 
I'm not sure FTF/FTE's is how competition guns die. Usually that's a fixable problem - springs and hammers and extractors and even sears are all replaceable wear items. Harder to fix is a gun that used to shoot 1.5" groups at 25 yards that now shoots 4" groups. Or that used to make PF with 4.3 grains of N320 and now takes 5.0 to pass the chrono. And only welding (if that) will fix a crack in the frame or slide along the rails.
 
One aspect that concerns me is the breakage of parts along the way. Not so much as the current production but for some older ones where the manufacturer does not exist. Like the Star Firestar M43 9mm I have. Broken extractors were known and now keeping the gun running for those small parts will be challenging. In that regard I don't shoot it much. These days having some parts duplicated is possible but at what relative expense to keep them going. (Like keeping an old car road worthy when the value is lowish.)

The 10-22 and S&W 2206 have the highest round counts here. Not close at all to see a difference as they very slowly "wear in".
 
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