Panzerschwein
member
Both the .455 and the .38/200 are long supplanted by superior cartridges, and in the case of the .38/200, supplanted before its creation/
Whatever you say, Vern.
Both the .455 and the .38/200 are long supplanted by superior cartridges, and in the case of the .38/200, supplanted before its creation/
S&W made their Military & Police revolver for the Empire forces in WWII. The British Purchasing Commission finally wound up buying the M&P ( "K" ) frame as opposed to the large frame ( "N" ) frame because of ease of production and lower price as well as the fact it could be easily chambered for the (then) current standard Army cartridge the 38/200 (which is a 38 S&W cartridge with a 176 gr. bullet (earlier ammo production used a nominally 200gr bullet.) The small frame Webley and the Enfield revolvers used this cartridge. The S&W product with it's 5" barrel was generally preferred by the British who used them. As an aside Australia, South Africa and New Zealand used the S&W M&P in considerable quantity.
The 38/200 (38 S&W) used a bullet of .361 (nominal) bore as opposed to the .356-57 used in the 38 S&W Special.
After WWII Parker-Hale refurbished quite a few 38-200 cal. British surplus M&P revolvers for the U.S. market. They shortened the barrels on some to 2" and sold them as carry guns (this however cut the front locking lug off along the the front of the barrel and the front sight. Parker-Hale added front sights but the locking lug was gone. Many consider the conversion with the 2" barrel unsafe.
This conversion also allowed the use of 38 S&W Special ammo in these guns... though it too is not a particularly safe thing to do... and the cases often split upon firing... this is really not a satisfactory conversion at all... Surprisingly you don't hear much about accidents with these guns, possibly because they are fairly rare now.
In addition quite a number of the British guns were imported into the U.S. still in the 38/200 chambering. These guns shoot 38S&W ammo just fine... they are strong well built guns that can be quite accurate with good ammunition... that of course being the rub... the ammo is scarce and expensive... Remington still makes 38 S&W ammo from time to time and it works. Winchester also catalogs the ammo... Likewise PPU and Fiocchi list the 38 S&W.
Hope that will be of interest...
V/r
Chuck
The S&W Parker-Hale that I have was given to me a year or two ago. The gun is in great shape. The barrel was shorten to 4 inches and a Parker-Hale front sight added.S&W made their Military & Police revolver for the Empire forces in WWII. The British Purchasing Commission finally wound up buying the M&P ( "K" ) frame as opposed to the large frame ( "N" ) frame because of ease of production and lower price as well as the fact it could be easily chambered for the (then) current standard Army cartridge the 38/200 (which is a 38 S&W cartridge with a 176 gr. bullet (earlier ammo production used a nominally 200gr bullet.) The small frame Webley and the Enfield revolvers used this cartridge. The S&W product with it's 5" barrel was generally preferred by the British who used them. As an aside Australia, South Africa and New Zealand used the S&W M&P in considerable quantity.
The 38/200 (38 S&W) used a bullet of .361 (nominal) bore as opposed to the .356-57 used in the 38 S&W Special.
After WWII Parker-Hale refurbished quite a few 38-200 cal. British surplus M&P revolvers for the U.S. market. They shortened the barrels on some to 2" and sold them as carry guns (this however cut the front locking lug off along the the front of the barrel and the front sight. Parker-Hale added front sights but the locking lug was gone. Many consider the conversion with the 2" barrel unsafe.
This conversion also allowed the use of 38 S&W Special ammo in these guns... though it too is not a particularly safe thing to do... and the cases often split upon firing... this is really not a satisfactory conversion at all... Surprisingly you don't hear much about accidents with these guns, possibly because they are fairly rare now.
In addition quite a number of the British guns were imported into the U.S. still in the 38/200 chambering. These guns shoot 38S&W ammo just fine... they are strong well built guns that can be quite accurate with good ammunition... that of course being the rub... the ammo is scarce and expensive... Remington still makes 38 S&W ammo from time to time and it works. Winchester also catalogs the ammo... Likewise PPU and Fiocchi list the 38 S&W.
Hope that will be of interest...
V/r
Chuck
Some say the .455 was this awesome man stopper, and the .38/200 was not good. Rubbish mate. Rubbish. The .38/200 was JUST FINE with the original 200 grain lead bullet. Had quite a thump on to it. With good shot placement, it was the equal to the .455 in effectiveness.
1) I already remarked on "good shot placement" a week or two ago in this thread. It reminds of of an anti-tank weapon that was guaranteed to knock out any tank on earth - provided it hit the tank commander in the eye.
2) Who is it who said that .38/200 was just fine? I have never heard this, and am curious to know.
3) 38 Special with a 200 grain RNL bullet was available in the US until at least the early 1980's. I know, because I bought a box for a 1939 vintage 5-inch Colt Official Police back then. It shot well, but had absolutely no reputation regards stopping power. It was not missed when it faded away, and most people don't know it ever existed. Which I, for one, think they would if it had been useful in any way.
4) I've never heard that .455 was an awesome manstopper, except for the same kind of campfire anecdotes you used to hear about the awesome stopping power of 45 ACP hardball. Sure, people used to think it was, but hard evidence to back that up just wasn't there.
Colonel Rex Applegate was satisfied with the performance of the .38/200 load when he used it in Germany on one of his missions.
But what did he know?
The Brits commonly manufactured two different military loads for the .455 Webley revolvers. The first was the generally known 265gr lead conical point bullet, and the second and less known "Colonial" load, which was a 250gr (at least the few I have seen) hollow point with a massive cavity somewhat like Bill Jordan's upside down hollow base WC for the 38/357Mag.
The "Colonial" loading is 3rd from left in this photo... most have never seen one and many are unaware of it's existence.
All the reports of the use of this bullet describe the effects as "devastating." It was considered so devastating some boxes of this ammo are labeled "Not to be used against Europeans." There was also a wad cutter type bullet and several other variations. I suppose however, the reports of the use of .455s have to be seen in the light of what was around to compare it to.
The British military wanted a smaller revolver following WWI and selected the Webley .380 revolver (basically a Mk. VI scaled down to .38) to replace the big Webley Mk. VI 455. Needless to say the 200 gr bullet at speeds similar to that of the bigger .455 was not loved by the British military. It goes without saying the "geniuses" in the War Department insisted the 38/200 was "just as good" as the 455/265 round... it wasn't. If you read reports of it's use by the military they were unconvinced from the start. The arrival of the 176gr bullet did not improve things... The Royal Navy while having to officially adopt the 380 revolver (38/200) the RN had sufficient quantities of Webley 455s and Webley 455 Autos on hand that they didn't acquire many .380 revolvers prior to WWII. The RN also liked the 1911 in .455 auto a lot, though the 45ACP was a good deal better. The Brit military welcomed the arrival of the Canadian Inglis built High Power in 9x19 as a replacement, though the .380 revolvers (mostly the Enfield 'rip-off" version of the Webley) hung on well into the 1950s.\
As a reference point here is the 455 Webley auto cartridge which was used in Webley 455 autos and Colt's 1911 autos.
FWIW
Chuck
I know I've seen Fiocchi .455 in the past. I wouldn't be surprised if they still make it.
I have no plans to convert it to 45 ACP. One of the reasons I bought it is because it was still chambered in 455 Webley.
Very cool. A Webley modified to .45 Colt would make a great bear gun if loded with Buffalo Bore hard cast +P loads.
The problem I would have with converting brass id that I shoot 45 Auto-rim in my Colt 1917 and 45 Colt in my two SAA copies. I was able to get a box of 455 Fiocchi and have fired the gun. I will probably order a few more boxes.Cases for the .455 revolver (various types) are easily made from .45 Auto-Rim by chucking the case in a lathe or drill press and trimming the rim from the front. The same can be done from .45 Colt but the case must also be trimmed to length. It sounds like a lot of trouble but I have done a 50 round box of .45 AR in well under an hour, so it's hardly a burdensome task.
Jim
My mk vi was handed to me in 1966 when I was around 12 years old by my father, who brought it back from ww2 in 1945.
He told me I would never be able to shoot it because there was no longer any ammo for it. We made a picture frame for it to hang on my bedroom wall. So after looking at it and wanting to shoot it for 50 years. I found out last year ammo was now available, and was able to get 20 boxes. It's serial numbers match and it hasn't been shaved, and came with a holster. Also recently found a hammer for it, to replace the broken original.