Webley Mark VI questions

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patch5129

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I recently bought a Webley Mark VI that has been "converted to fire .45 ACP" But after reading a lot of horror stories, with some equally horrifying pictures, I have been reluctant to fire it.

Mainly because I dont want to blow apart the gun, and also I am rather fond of my hands.

The guy at the gun store said as long as I use .45 ACP with half or full moon clips it should be fine. But I tell you, seeing just one picture of a blown up Webley made a few hairs go white.

Basically I would like to know what is the best course of action to take in keeping this gun in great shape, and not as a wall hanger. Should I...

Use .45 ACP for the gun, and just not go through 50 rounds a day all the time (I doubt I would, but a regular guy at the range would)

Try to find an original cylinder for the Mark VI, switch it out with my converted one, and pay a little more for .455 ammo

Try to find a .45 ACP brand that has less power (pressure?) the the normal .45

Use .455 in the converted .45 chambers

pull out all stops, and pour my own bullets so I can fire .45 with less powder in the cartridge?

To clear up all the "Depends how often you're going to use the gun" I'll just fill the fields.

Believe it or not, there isnt an indoor shooting range in my city in Alaska, at least not one I know about, so I'll be doing outdoor shooting, probably not more then twice a month.

The .45s I have now are Blazer Ammunition, 230 grain full metal jacket, not hollow point.

The Webley is a 1916 Mark VI, as stated, converted.

Any help would be very helpful.
 
Yup.
You don't have to "pour your own bullets" to handload .45 ACP to .455 ballistics. You can buy what you need. If you want to LOOK more period, get some .45 Auto Rim which do not require the clip.
 
So the best solution would to be handloading .45 ACP or .45 autorims with the same, as you say, ballistics to the .455?

Alright, I'll look into it, might be able to find somone who wouldnt mind loading them for me.

Thanks for the help.
 
Try a 230 or 250 grain slug, preferably .454" diameter, over 5.5 grains of Unique. That's what I run through my old converted Webley.
 
So youre saying I should put a heavier slug into the .45 casing?

I'm afraid I am still quite new with the proper how-do and what-nots of hand loading.

Been looking at the ballistics between the .455 and the .45 ACP. Of course I can see that the ACP has a much higher velocity than the .455 so I guess my question is, since I cant find someone local who can handload them for me, how can I reduce a bullets vellocity?

Thanks for the advice OFT. Could you link me to some place I could find a 230-250 slug in that diameter? most of the ones i see are only .451 and .452
 
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.455 cylinders for the Mk VI are about non-existent. If you don't reload and don't know anyone who does, it might be time to hang the old Webley on the wall.

There used to be .45 ACP target loads, with less power than the standard load, but I don't know if they are available any more.

Jim
 
So, its a little more complex.. All the Webley SERVICE revolvers (like the Mk VI in question) will have cylinder throats of .450" diameter, BUT the barrels will run between .454 and .456 in the groves. It's not a bug, it's a feature, as it's documented in the engineering drawings.

This isn't true for Webley revolvers that are not 'Service Revolvers', like a WG for instance.

Regardless of the diameter of the bullet you load, the cylinder will size it down to .450 on firing. If it is a hardcast, or jacketed bullet you run the risk of a pressure spike if you have a slight overload, which will bulge the chamber out into the external cylinder lockup notches (there has to be a better word for those). I have done just that myself, ruining a cylinder, as the brass will no longer eject from that chamber.

Anyway, now you have a .450 bullet rattling down a .455 barrel. No wonder that Webleys firing 45ACP have such a bad rep for accuracy.

The only thing that works is a soft lead HOLLOW BASE bullet. RCBS make a die, as do NEI. I prefer the NEI as it's easier to crimp on. The hollow base 'slugs up' down into the groves, engages the rifling and off you go.

My answer would be to cast your own slugs from a NEI mould using 1-12 or 1-16 alloy, size and lube to .455, build the round with Starline 45 AR brass, large pistol primer and 6.5 grains of HS6. That's about 630 fps out of a 4" barrel. That speed, with a 265gr bullet is in spec for the gun. Unless, of course, you can find someone to cast the bullets for you.

This is what it looks like (click on the pic for a bigger view) :



The two rounds on the left and right are the 265 gr NEI slug in AR brass. The center two are 250 gr Naval Target bullets.

I have an orignal, uncut Mk V on sale on GunBroker right now.. (plug, plug).

RCBS Mould : http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/showproduct?saleitemid=195619
NEI : http://www.neihandtools.com/catalog/index.html (you need mould #330)

Like I said, the NEI is easier to cast and to crimp on.

S
 
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Just out of curiosity, is there anyone providing a reaming service for Webley throats? I know www.cylindersmith.com corrects issues like this in more common revolvers (he did my 629) -- and I know he doesn't list anything larger than .4525" for .45s, but it might be something to discuss with him. All you'd really need is the right reamer and pilot (I'd assume, anyway) and you could probably make accuracy and leading problems disappear.

Just curious.

-Sam
 
To make reaming (or boring, on a 4 jaw chuck lathe) worthwhile, you would need to enlarge the diameter of the cylinder throats out to the same as the diameter in the grooves. For a Webley, that is .455" to .456". Most people like to size about a thou over that, so lets call it .457".

Once you do that, you would need to find a commercial bullet of that size. Anything less than that (like .454" for a 45 Colt) would just make the thing lead up like crazy..

I don't know of any commercial bullets of .455" or .456", but I think that .457" is the size that 45-70 slugs are. So, if you can find bullets that are for a 45-70, and are in the 250 to 280 grain weight range and are prepared to bore/ream out each chamber, that might be a solution. Dunno if the 45AR brass would expand enough to seat the bullet, but it sounds just about feasible..

Pouring your own seems less trouble..
 
I don't know of any commercial bullets of .455" or .456", but I think that .457" is the size that 45-70 slugs are.
Click to expand...

This is exactly the line of reasoning I was following. .45 cal rifle bullets actually mic. to around .458-.459" which would work pretty well with .457" throats, I'd think. Unfortunately 300 gr. is more or less the bottom end for commercially easily available lead bullets in that diameter. (Though I'm sure someone makes lighter ones, somewhere.) And that would make for a pretty stout load, or a monstrously slow one. (300 grains at 400 fps? :eek:) Plus, they're a bunch more expensive than standard pistol bullets.

Of course, custom molds could be make for whatever you needed...but if you're pouring your own anyway...?

Don't know how easy it would be to seat them in A-R cases, but the "neck tension" would be pretty good!

Might be a fun project, but probably just easier to buy expanding base bullets.

-Sam
 
Patch,
Virtually all commercial 45 ammo is too hot for your old war-horse. The original 455 spec was for (I think) 620 fps. Even the Fiocchi 455 ammo that's available today is loaded to 850 fps, which seems (IMHO) to be too hot. I handload 45 LRN, 230gr (available everywhere) to 650-700 fps and my Mk VI is a pussycat to shoot. Soft recoil and pretty accurate to boot. To keep these old-timers safe, you really need to load your own ammo. No way around it.
Good luck with your Webley.
 
Even the Fiocchi 455 ammo that's available today is loaded to 850 fps
Click to expand...

I do not know why Fiocchi lists their ammo with this velocity, actual ballistics are no where close....

The last time I chronographed my MK VI, it gave about 630 fps with the Fiocchi load. :confused:
 
Patch, I cast my .454s from an old Lyman mold that I've had for years. If you can't find .454 slugs then try .452. I think that as long as they are soft lead they will work about the same.
 
Thanks everyone.

Looks like I'll need to be loading my own bullets. I actually dont have a probalem with that, makes it feel more personal.

I'll start looking arround for some equiptment and manuals.
 
455Hunter said : "The last time I chronographed my MK VI, it gave about 630 fps with the Fiocchi load."

Agreed, that is what I clocked it at out of a 4" barrel.

Patch, because your cylinder has been cut down you don't have the option of using that factory ammo. It's reloads or regular 45 ACP for you, and I really wouldn't recommend commercial 45 ACP. The gun will fire them, but its like firing proof rounds all the time. Accuracy sucks too, for all the reasons outlined above.

Once again I would recommend using 45 Auto Rim (AR) brass for your Webley. The NEI mould, Starline AR brass and 6.5 grains of HS6 will give you between 625 and 635 fps. You can also use the 45 AR speedloaders intended for the S&W 625 with the Webley as well, if you really want to get racy :) Ya know, IDPA and all that ! Good bowling pin gun as well.

That said, do you have any reloading equipment ? Its a lot to invest for one gun, but could become the hobby of a lifetime !
:)
 
Don't have any, but I dont mind pulling stops out for just one gun.

If you're going to do even one thing, do it properly.

To me the gun is too fine to just sit in a case on a wall.

SteveW-II youre talking about a MKVI with a 4 inch barrell, would it make a differance if it had a 6 incher instead?
 
Patch5129 said : "SteveW-II youre talking about a MKVI with a 4 inch barrell, would it make a differance if it had a 6 incher instead?"

The gun I tested the Fiocchi ammo with was a 1899 Mk IV, with a 4" barrel. Issued for the Boar War. A six inch barrel might have added 20 fps to it, at most.

All the Webley revolvers are either black powder guns, or just one step away from that. Even though the Mk V and Mk VI were 'cordite' they were still expected to fire black powder rounds that might still be in inventory somewhere in the world. For that reason the barrel to cylinder gap is very wide by modern standards, but was designed that way to stop black powder fouling from preventing the cylinder from turning. This has the side effect of letting most of the propellant gas leak out, so the barrel length doesn't have much effect on bullet velocity.

If you enjoy Webleys, I would recommended getting a copy of 'Webley Revolvers' by Bruce and Reinhart. ISBN 3-7276-7077-0. Based on, but much better than 'The Webley Story' by Dowell. The .577" Boxer Revolver of 1870 was the 'fight stopper' of it's day..
 
I'm jealous of you guys. I wish I had a .45 Webley.

Or Dies to reload for my .38 S&W.
PA090156.jpg


PA090155.gif
 
I take it that is a Webley & Scott Ltd. Mk. III? I would not mind having one of those someday. When were the Webley Mk. III revolvers (.380" cal, not the .455" Mk.III version) first made?

I have a post-WWII Webley & Scott Ltd. Mk. IV .380" calibre. I really like it, want to have an actual WWII dated Mk.IV someday, but grateful to have any Webley at this point.

I bought the dies for the .380" (aka .38 S&W) Cartridge at a nearby Cabela's for around $23 (U.S). Then ordered a Lee Hand Press for around $25 (US) from MidwayUSA. Started reloading for the Webley just to keep the costs down. I have been having fun learning to reload.

After Christmas I am going to try and find some .359"-.360" 180 grain or 200 grain bullets to try and see how close I can come to duplicating the .380" Mk.I Revolver Cartridge (200 grain bullet) or the .380" Mk.II Revolver Cartridge (178 grain bullet, I think?, it is close to that weight). Right now I am using real cheap (price, not quality) Magtech .358" 158 grain lead round nose that were made for loading .38 Special and .357 Magnum cartridges. They work all right, actualy better (my opinion) than the factory 145 grain .38 S&W rounds made by Remington. I want to see how it shoots with the correct weight and size bullet.
Thanks
Mark
 
"When were the Webley Mk. III revolvers (.380" cal, not the .455" Mk.III version) first made?"

March, 1896.

Source - page 151, Webley Revolvers, Bruce & Reinhart.
 
I shoot my converted MK VI all the time using the bullseye load I've used for practice with almost all of my .45 acp pistols. It's a blast to shoot and more accurate than either of my (now) two 1917 S&W revolvers. Something especially neat about using top break revolvers. The load is 4.6 gr. of bullseye and a 200 gr .452" cast LSWC.
Over 1000 firings sinc I bought this Webley - no sign of a problem and it easily takes out the black on a standard 25 yd slow fire NRA target at 25 yds.

The bigger grip makes it a nicer gun to shoot well than the S&W's are with issue stocks.

WEbLEy.gif
 
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KRS, that's a really nice Mk VI. Very even bluing. Good grips too.

WRT to your reloads, have you ever shot them over a chrono ? I would be interested to know what speed they are doing.

Patch5129, there are two Webley 455 replacement cylinders on GunBroker right now. One is mine, so I guess this is a shameless plug.. Sorry if that's against the rules..
 
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