Weirdest autoloaders...
- Thread starter Greg Bell
- Start date
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BluesBear
member
I only WISH I could collect Palm Pistols. I just collect PHOTOS of Palm Pistols. 
However I have held several of them in my own grubby little hands. Back in the late 60s thay could have been bought for around $75 but there was no ammo. I even dry fired one once. It took quite a squeeze. I do know a guy in Kentucky that owns a genuine Turbiaux(?) palm pistol I believe the french name for it was "Sqeezer". It was made almost exactly the same as the US ones. I don't remember the caliber.
The few I have seen for sale recently are all over $1,500. The one with the Mother of Pearl "grips" was over $3,000. I just can't see paying that much for a gun that I can't shoot. .32 Rimfire ammo ain't cheap when you can find it.
I have owned two Lignose Einhand pistols though. One was a .25 acp long grip. It was too big for it's caliber but held 9 in the mag as I recall. The smaller size .25 was a great pocket gun though. They were designed and originally made by Bergmann. Bergmann sold the rights to Lignose around 1919 or 1920.
However I have held several of them in my own grubby little hands. Back in the late 60s thay could have been bought for around $75 but there was no ammo. I even dry fired one once. It took quite a squeeze. I do know a guy in Kentucky that owns a genuine Turbiaux(?) palm pistol I believe the french name for it was "Sqeezer". It was made almost exactly the same as the US ones. I don't remember the caliber.
The few I have seen for sale recently are all over $1,500. The one with the Mother of Pearl "grips" was over $3,000. I just can't see paying that much for a gun that I can't shoot. .32 Rimfire ammo ain't cheap when you can find it.
I have owned two Lignose Einhand pistols though. One was a .25 acp long grip. It was too big for it's caliber but held 9 in the mag as I recall. The smaller size .25 was a great pocket gun though. They were designed and originally made by Bergmann. Bergmann sold the rights to Lignose around 1919 or 1920.
Campusninja
Member
Kraut Staple Gun
Greg Bell where did you go for the Hard Chrome job on the front P7?? Those are fine uns, and should get honorable mention in this thread.
Long live the cult of the P7
Greg Bell where did you go for the Hard Chrome job on the front P7?? Those are fine uns, and should get honorable mention in this thread.
Long live the cult of the P7
Gary in Pennsylvania
Member
- Joined
- Dec 19, 2003
- Messages
- 683
Badger Arms . . . . What is that little palmer?
Mike Irwin
Member
Any of the mechanical marvels/Rube Goldbergs that were manufactured by the MARS handgun company.
"Greg Bell where did you go for the Hard Chrome job on the front P7?? Those are fine uns, and should get honorable mention in this thread.
Long live the cult of the P7"
AP&W did the work. You can get the whole soap-opera by doing a search over at TFL. Yes, all-hail the mightly P7.
Long live the cult of the P7"
AP&W did the work. You can get the whole soap-opera by doing a search over at TFL. Yes, all-hail the mightly P7.
Badger Arms
Member
Badger Arms
Member
There is also the Schwarzlose pistol of which I do NOT have a digital picture. This was a blow-forward gun that operated in the semi-automatic fassion unlike the similar layout design of the Semmerling.
If anybody has a digital picture of one of these, could you please email me or post it if it is small enough?
If anybody has a digital picture of one of these, could you please email me or post it if it is small enough?
BluesBear
member
Badger Arms,
I have a high quality reference book photo of a Schwarzlose.
I'll be home this afternoon and will scan it for you.
I have a high quality reference book photo of a Schwarzlose.
I'll be home this afternoon and will scan it for you.
DougCxx
Member
Now this is just silly (the gun, I mean):
http://www.thegunzone.com/bwest.html
......
-I thought that there was a [US] weight limit for pistols? 56 oz unloaded is what I recall.... Wouldn't a stockless AK be over this? Or was this law in effect at that time?
(-I had not heard of Mars Imports previously...)
~
http://www.thegunzone.com/bwest.html
......
-I thought that there was a [US] weight limit for pistols? 56 oz unloaded is what I recall.... Wouldn't a stockless AK be over this? Or was this law in effect at that time?
(-I had not heard of Mars Imports previously...)
~
Badger Arms
Member
Doug, the window of time we are speaking of here is between when the first known (to BATF) pistols in 7.62x39 were made and the September 1994 effective date of the AWB. There are a few laws at work here. First, the Assault Weapons ban addresses the maximum weight of certain types of pistols and therefore would have banned AK pistols anyhow. The ban on armor piercing ammunition said that steel-cored PISTOL ammo could not be made or imported, therefore they had to prove that the 7.62x39mm pistol existed and was in production. Finally, the GCA of 1968 established that the licensed premises of a business are where the actual receiver of the gun has to be made. Because B-West was making receivers outside of the licensed premises, they were in violation of the law. Bummer.
cidirkona
Member
B-Arms Tucson, Az... are they still in exsistance? I'd like to swing by if they are...
-Colin
-Colin
Badger Arms
Member
B-West went out of business years ago. Read the story above and it gives you the skinny.
The final Steyr GB wasn't bad, but the U.S. licensed copy of an earlier Steyr design made by Rogak was a real POS. It was the same type of gas retarded blowback, but they never got the delay worked out, so the extractor kept tearing the rims off the cases. Rogak's "brilliant" solution was to grind the hook of the extractor and tell the customer in the owner's manual to extract a live round by pointing the pistol at an upward angle with the ejection port tipped to the right and operate the slide. Yes, it works. Extracting a live round was often necessary because the hammer spring was too weak and the gun misfired just about every round.
Jim
Jim
Longbow
Member
My local gunshop has a 1900(?) FN .380 cal. Boy, that's one weird gun!
Gordon
Member
If that there is a .380 FN Mod 1900, it is one of the rarest guns on earth. My FN Mod 1900 .32acp has nice Victorian look about it, but by JMB's ghost it ain't weird!
Another vote for the Mars Pistol...a Magnum ahead of it's time,or a turn of the 20th century Desert Eagle.
The weirdest one I've owned was a 1907 Savage with a delayed rotary barrel lug lockup to tame the considerable recoil of the .32acp.
Neat little pistol.
The weirdest one I've owned was a 1907 Savage with a delayed rotary barrel lug lockup to tame the considerable recoil of the .32acp.
Neat little pistol.
geekWithA.45
Moderator Emeritus
I don't have a picture...
but I did find a Grendel P10 semi-auto on a consignment shelf once.
http://www.okiegunsmithshop.com/Grendell_P-10.jpg
It appeared to be a completely conventional .380 handgun but for one fact:
It had no detacheable magazine. Apparently, you had to charge the gun one round at a time from the top.
I'm not really sure what the designer had in mind when he did that, but whatever.....
but I did find a Grendel P10 semi-auto on a consignment shelf once.
http://www.okiegunsmithshop.com/Grendell_P-10.jpg
It appeared to be a completely conventional .380 handgun but for one fact:
It had no detacheable magazine. Apparently, you had to charge the gun one round at a time from the top.
I'm not really sure what the designer had in mind when he did that, but whatever.....
Badger Arms
Member
Same guy that designed the Kel-Tec P11 and subsequent pistols. What was he thinking? It's a pocket gun, silly. You don't reload it, you just shoot it. I don't agree, but then again I'm not him either.
The Grendel was the combination of the smallest and lightest .380 pocket piece at the time. Forgoing a conventional mag and grip was intentional as part of the weight and size savings.
It could be charged quickly with .223 stripper clips as they have the same case head size as .380 IIRC. Not really any worse than a non-moon clip revolver IMO.
Not a great success, I agree, but not everyone is JMB, and you don't get anywhere if you're unwilling to take a chance. Fortunately Kelgren was able to capitalize on the mistakes of the Grendels and apply what he learned to the Kel-Tec's.
Obviously the debeut of the Kel-Tek P3AT worked up via the P32 is the same concept, but with the more conventional design, and probably even smaller.
Greg's posting is the very unusual Grendel P22, a 20 shot .22 magnum with a conventional magazine arrangment.
It could be charged quickly with .223 stripper clips as they have the same case head size as .380 IIRC. Not really any worse than a non-moon clip revolver IMO.
Not a great success, I agree, but not everyone is JMB, and you don't get anywhere if you're unwilling to take a chance. Fortunately Kelgren was able to capitalize on the mistakes of the Grendels and apply what he learned to the Kel-Tec's.
Obviously the debeut of the Kel-Tek P3AT worked up via the P32 is the same concept, but with the more conventional design, and probably even smaller.
Greg's posting is the very unusual Grendel P22, a 20 shot .22 magnum with a conventional magazine arrangment.
JCM298
Member
GRENDEL!!!!!!
I owned a NIB Grendel for a brief time. In 200 rounds, I never got it to fire a full magazine without a jam. I had six different brands of ammo. and nothing could make that thing dependable.
I took it back to the dealer and he gave me full credit towards the purchase of another gun. He also said that he would never buy/sell another because every one he sold was returned.
It loaded very easily but clearing it was a pain. Each round had to be ejected individually.
Accuracy was never that good either,
John
I owned a NIB Grendel for a brief time. In 200 rounds, I never got it to fire a full magazine without a jam. I had six different brands of ammo. and nothing could make that thing dependable.
I took it back to the dealer and he gave me full credit towards the purchase of another gun. He also said that he would never buy/sell another because every one he sold was returned.
It loaded very easily but clearing it was a pain. Each round had to be ejected individually.
Accuracy was never that good either,
John
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