Well armed NYPD = tourist attractions

[Fly320s]

CNN Headline News reporter Jeannie Moos (sp?) just aired a story about how tourists in NYC are taking photos of and with the NYPD officers who are armed with M4/AR15 variants.

Apparently, the "big" or "scary" guns are a big hit with the tourists. The tourists don't usually get to see machine guns on the street (despite what some people think). When a tourist being interviewed stated that the "machine gun" is why she wanted a photo, reporter Moos corrected the statement by saying, "actually, it's an M4, semi-automatic rifle."

Maybe we should open-up a THR tourist trap. We could charge people $5 to get a look at Tamara's collection.

 

[Drjones]

Is it just me, or does it seem like a VERY bad idea for them to be letting random "tourists" that close to them?

 

[El Tejon]

Dr., what could be the danger, do you think NYPD is carrying live rounds in their carbines???

This farce is just for the soccermommies.

 

[Pat_Rogers]

Errr, actually the M4 is a machine gun in that it fires a 3 round burst with a single pull of the trigger.
The M4A1 is a full auto carbine.

I believe that Emergency uses the Colt R0979, but i'll have to check.

There is no such thing as a semi auto M4....Or a Busmaster M4 etc...

Drjones- a common complaint - often echoed through the disinformation cowpath- is that the police are too distant from the "people".
So what is it- are the cops too distant or too close?
Can you please advise how, in NYC, you can keep people away from cops, Cith Hall, the Brooklyn Bridge, or anything else?
Having spent 20 years of my life on the job thereat, i'd be real interested in how you would accomplish their task.

El Tejon- yes, there is real ammunition in those guns....

 

[Drjones]

It seems like an excellent distraction.

If they are cops, shouldn't they be looking around, alert to suspicious activity, rather than be playing "dress-up and take your picture with me"?

 

[Kamicosmos]

I've been to NYC the past couple summers to visit friends.
In 2003, all over the various tourist places were fully decked out SWAT guys with M4s, MP5s, or even some larger stuff that looked like G3s. The first time I saw them, I thought something was going down, so I got my camera out and waited across the street to see what was up. The native Brooklynite I was with said...."They're there all the time, come on!"

Apparently business as usual in the Big Apple...

 

[magsnubby]

OH MY GOD!!!!!!THE COPS HAVE GUNS WITH REAL BULLETS!!!!!!MACHINEGUNS!!!!!!OH MY GOD!!!!!!

 

[El Tejon]

Pat, thanks for the info!!! I'll be a badger's uncle.

Are all these guys SRT or SRT-trained? Just have specialized training for this type of gig? Just have to be qual'd on the M4? What's the skinny, guns?

Kind of in shock that NYC would allow this (after what Dinkins and ilk said about guns), but this is post-9/11 and there is now an alleged "Republican" administration.

 

[Pat_Rogers]

NY Republicans are socialists- with the exception of Staten Island, the only borough that consistently votes Republican.

Those guys are Emergency Service. They are dual hatted as they do primarily rescue work (they were originally trained by FDNY in the 20's, and their logo is a fire truck), a constant sore point.
Their are some sub units that have a tactical mission exclusively within ESU, but the level of tactical training on the NE east coast is significantly different than what occurs in the United States.

When i worked in Central Robbery Division in the 80's (when the racist dinkins was in power), we had to case our 13.5" M37's on the way to and returning from stakout locations- so as not to offend the civilians plying their trade.
The funny thing is, the average person working in manhattan (most of whom are from outside of NYC) wouldn't have a clue if you had a nuke in your hand. They were all in White and looking at the ground so as to avoid seeing something unpleasant...

The key is "post 9/11". While many of the elite are forgetful of what occured, i used to be able to look out of my bedroom window and see the Twin Towers.
Now i see an empty sky and the visons of friends lost.
I haven't forgotten, and i will never forgive.

 

[El Tejon]

So, these guys are full-time Emergency Services? This must copulate the work schedule/readiness if these guys are standing around landmarks, no? NYC create more slots within ES then?

Didn't mean to bring any sorepoints out with Dinkins. Just remember what he said about guns, hollowpoints and cops in the '80s.

What a profound change 9/11 was if this is now policy in New York City.

No one wins on defense. Hope our boys have good hunting.

 

[benEzra]

There is no such thing as a semi auto M4

Actually, there is: Colt Match Target M4. Not sure if that's what the NYPD use, though.

I notice that the NYPD mini-14's aren't seen anymore. Are they relegated to regular patrol officers, or are they being phased out in favor of AR-type rifles?

 

[Pat_Rogers]

Ben- any company can say whatever they want. "mil spec"; "match" National Match" etc.

Colt has some legal action going on with this, as they have stated that they have done the preponderance of work on that platform.
Colt has taken action against the Tier 2/3 makers to prevent them from using that term.
Colt Match Target M4 is not the same as M4/ M4A1. It was the manufacturers way of marketing to the civilian buyers something that was PC. M4 has the military connatation. Match etc has something else again.
This makes sense only in a PC world.
If you look in the TM, it will list the charecteristics of the M4/M4A1. Among those are 14.5" bbl, and 3 round burst/ full auto.

The Mini's were purchased to replace the M1 Carbines in the early 70's as they were politically correct.
After 9/11, NYPD purchased 400 mini's, and Ruger donated 100 more.
They are all in storage at Rodmans Neck, merrily rusting away.
ESU wanted- and got- the Colt's.
Some Mini's are still in the trucks, but patrol has no long guns whatsoever.

El Tejon-There are appx 400 in ESU. They work in Emergency 24/7 as a full time job. Additionally, there is significant overtime to man certain fixed posts.
This is not new. For years there have been fixed posts at the UN, embassy's and counulates.
During certain times of the year, there are "House of Worship" post, cars, and details, though they only are fixed at the "house" of one denomination- a true political move.

Dinkins was a genuine POS. His PC was Ray Kelly, a very poor PC- and, once again, fecal matter rises to the top and he is the PC again.
This may speak volumes as to who Bloomburg- the Democrat cum Republican actually is.....

 

[Dorian]

Errr, actually the M4 is a machine gun in that it fires a 3 round burst with a single pull of the trigger.
The M4A1 is a full auto carbine.

ACTUALLY....

The M4A1 comes in two flavors. 3 round burst AND full auto. I'm currently serving in a Cavalry unit and our Cav Scouts carry 3 round burst M4A1s. picatinny rails on the forearm and removable carry handle. Nice rifles. I'm stuck with an M16a2 instead of the newer A4 :/

 

[Pat_Rogers]

Actually Dorian....

Thank you for your service.

I was involved in the XM4 testing in 86, and have been intimately one (sorta like zen) with the Carbine since.

The M4A1 does not come "in two flavors". Having shot one of each type, and walked around the block once, i'll not only rely on that miniscule personal experience, but direct you to the following:
TM 05538D/10012B-12/1
USMC Operators manual w/ Components List.

This includes the M4 w/e (1005 01 231 0973)
as well as M4A1 w/e (1005 01 382 0953)

Note that there is only one NSN for the M4A1.
The only difference between the M4 and M4A1 is the fact that the M4 is Burst and the M4A1 is auto. If there were two types of M4A1's, there would be two NSN's.

On pg 1-5, under "Fire Selector"
it lists the following:
SAFE-SEMI-BURST (M4)
SAFE-SEMI-AUTO (M4A1)

While this is a Marine Corps document, i'm sure that your armory has the applicable TM's and OM's for the weapons issued to your unit.
While not hard and fast, the M4 is generally issued to the big Army, while the M4A1 is generally issued to SOF assets.

Now, is it possible that a weapon was incorrectly assembled or modified? Maybe.
Is it possible that during initial shipments some Carbines were improperly marked? The author of BR2 says so, on pg 84.

But you are going to have to provide official documentation to support your statement.
I have fired several hundred M4A1's and a few M4's, and have supervised ranges where a great many more were fired- to include all branches of the service.
I'm a tad skeptical, but i'm sure you understand why.

 

[fistful]

Last I knew, a machine gun fires rifle cartridges and is designed for sustained, long range fire (i.e., it has a heavy barrel and bipod or tripod). An assault "rifle" or carbine like the M4 may or may not pass the first test. It certainly can't pass the second.

Amazingly, the CNN reporter had some general idea of what she was talking about! My guess; she was repeating something one of the cops told her.

 

[Sylvilagus Aquaticus]

...bringing it back on track....

how much of it is simply 'vacation picture-taking' and when does it become 'surveillance'?

http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/0810041nc1.html

I'm suspicious of anyone who 'just doesn't look right'...camera or not. Of course, I've never been PC.
I can't afford to be.


I do think opening Tamara's vaults would be a nice little profit center, though...


Regards,
Rabbit.

 

[joab]

There is no such thing as a semi auto M4....Or a Busmaster M4 etc...

The Bushmaster XM15 E2S M4A2 Type Carbine May are may not be a true M4 or maybe they're just using a common name like many people calling any 1911 type pistol of Colt's trademarked Commander size a Commander.
Or like my grandmother calling every refrigerator ever made a Fridgeadare and every self sticking bandage a Bandaide

 

[Pat_Rogers]

A machine gun is a firearm capable of firing more tha one round with a single pull (sic) of the trigger.

Fistful- an MP5 is a Sub (caliber) Machine Gun. It doesn't have a bipod etc, but is capable of Full Auto / burst fire. An assault rifle, by definition, is a select fire weapon.
A Browning Machine Gun, Caliber .50 HB M2 is a Heavy Machine Gun. It can be fired from a tripod, or a pintle mount etc.
The M240 B/G are MMG's. The list goes on, but the commonality is that they are all capable of firing more than one round with a single press of the trigger.
Interestingly, the first SMG, the Villa Perosa, was fired from a bipod.

If you re read the first post, Ms Moos stated that "..it's an M4, semi automatic rifle".
As stated, the M4 is capable of firing a 3 round burst- more than one shot with a single press of the machine gun. It is not a semi automatic gun.

Get arrested for possessing/ using a full auto gun and see what you are charged with.

Joab- As stated earlier, companies have a tendency to call what they make anything they want, though using "M4" may no longer be viable.
I was informed that one company is marketing an "M4A3" which is not an official designator, but rather an attempt by the company to market something that has a high CDI.
Marketing hype is just that.
Note that your comments are about an M4 "Type". Many years ago i found that "type" means a knock off, similar too but not the exact article.
Please look at my post above regarding NSN's. That's it folks- an M4 and an M4A1. They are the only carbines in the system. They are made only by Colt. Always have been.

You can polish a pile of fecal matter but in the end it isn't gold.


But hey, don't let me confuse theories with facts...

Sylvilaquez- You have hit upon a dilemma. At what point does a person look suspicious? At what point does taking pictures of a structure become a crime?
There are large signs posted on the Narrows Bridge stating "Photography Prohibited". What law forbids this?
Is it OK if i take pics from the Belt Parkway or Shore Road?

At what point do we make a common act a crime.
Remember that cops are there to do a multitude of tasks. No matter how efficiently that is done, theperception of the work may be greater than the work itself. All companies/ departments/ agencies have PR people to push forward a positive agenda.
My partner and i once got a complaint because we wouldn't permit tourists- in the company of a retired cop- to take a posed pic with them.
The biggest question is how do you stop someone from taking a picture of a cop while working?

 

[Kharn]

NYPD Officer with his M4:

(Here's one from Aimpoint's site if you're not sure how it should be mounted)

I might want a photo with that guy, just so I could snicker about the Aimpoint.

Kharn

 

[fistful]

Pat,

I'm still right, you're wrong, so there. Actually, it escaped my notice that she said it was semi-auto. I'm just amazed that a CNN reporter apparently knew that there is a difference between an assault carbine, such as the AR/M4/M16/whatever, and a machine gun, which is still defined as I previously stated. Maybe I should have added automatic or select fire to the definition, but I thought that went without saying. My point is that the M4, even on a bipod, (or even the M249) can't reach out and brutalize someone as far out or as long as the M240. I never said the M4 wasn't regulated like a machine gun, but that doesn't make it one. Are we letting the ATFE define firearms terminology for us now?

Regarding the term "M4", isn't it a military designation, meaning that anything in military service that meets the M4 specifications, is an M4, regardless of manufacturer?

OK, this discussion has gone on too long. I feel silly at this point.

 

[Pat_Rogers]

Fistful- if we follow you line of thought, how do you reconcile sub machine gun?

Let's see- machine gun. Hmmmm. Fires more than one shot per press of the trigger......Automatic fire....machine gun.

Re the M4. You are correct. However only one company - Colt's- makes, or has made, the M4/M4A1 for the military.
That's it.
Consequently there are no other makers of M4's. Other makers build an M4 "type" gun, but as stated earlier, Colt has some rights there.



Re Are "we" letting ATFE ..."
I don't know. Are you pregnant?

Is this sorta' like you defining a wjole new genre of guns- the "assault carbine"

Actually, the nomenclature is;

Carbine, Caliber 5.56mm, M4 (or M4A1)

 

[Thumper]

Man...I can be an ornerey sum' buck, but I'm not gonna argue with Pat Rogers on gun related stuff.

Some of you cats have cajones.

 

[keyhole]

I used to get sideways looks all the time when I carried my 1911. And would have people ask if it was loaded.

It's been 20+ since I was in NY, different world now. Have people always complain about it when they come into court.

 

[Checkman]

As a police officer you're expected to be civil and friendly to the citizenry - especially when working public events etc. It's my understanding that NYC depends on and values the tourist trade. When bad things happen to tourists in the Big Apple it can make headlines across the country. Remember the kid from Utah who was stabbed in the chest when he tried to protect his mother from muggers in the subway? It happened in the late eighties/early ninties. That event made the cover of Time magazine. So I'm sure those officers have been directed to be nice to the tourists. If not ordered you can bet that it's been strongly implied that they will be friendly and approachable. Can you imagine what would happen if the press reported that all those heavily armed officers were confiscating cameras from the tourists and refusing to pose for photos? Like it or not those officers are acting as PR as well as security. It's the nature of the profession. Something they don't talk about in the movies. I'm not going to venture into the debate about the M-4 carbines. They look cool though. I especially like the photo of the cop with the massive arms. Notice that he has his sleeves rolled up so that his guns stand out.

 

[El Tejon]

Yeah, that guy knows where the weight pile is!