Went into condition orange for first time today. Rate me - overreact?

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M4B, are you suggesting that the OP stay seated and draw his pistol under the table? Problem with that is, if I'm imagining the situation correctly, that the OP's partner is between them, completely oblivious.

I think I would have done what he did, with the possible addition of deciding which way I was going to go to clear my partner. I don't want to be shooting over my partner if the dude pulls a weapon. FWIW, all else being equal, I'd probly go to the right (I'm right handed and carry on my right side). If somebody is going to cause trouble, I want to face it on my feet.

Parker
 
Ok. From your story, I got the impression that he was just walking down the side walk and it was your buddy talking that you weren't paying attention to and you simply jumped up because he was a grungy black man. Now I understand that he was blatantly walking to you to interact. A little different situation.

I still don't know if I would have stood up like that, but I'm here where white people are a minority and I see grungy black dudes every 5 seconds...especially in the French Quarter, and they all come right up to you and want to sell you some story as to why they want to bum some money from you.

I still probably would have remained seated and made my piece handy under the table, however, in your case, I guess you did what you felt you needed to do and you certainly can't be blamed for that.

CATSPA: No, I wouldn't draw it (maybe lift my shirt, put my hand on it)...i'd be ready to draw as i stood and side step one way or the other to clear my partner.
 
I wouldn't worry about it too much. You did fine. You addressed a situation without drawing your weapon... but you were in a position to do so had things went south. Anything less could've put your buddy, with his back to the situation, in danger....anything more would've been an over-reaction for sure.

More likely than not, the guy was probably looking for money to self-medicate a mental disorder. Drawing on him could've escelated the situation and drawn a lot of attention to yourself.
 
Thanks mud, and glad the confusion cleared up. Let me be clear: he was not just walking on his own way somewhere. I see grungy people of all races like that and could care less. He got OFF the sidewalk (or parking lot - I couldn't tell) and came right behind my friend, walking through private grass to get there. He began speaking to us when I stood up - h e was clearly targeting us for something.

I couldn't make my piece handy because 1) I didn't feel it justified that yet and 2) my friend would've been in the crossfire.
 
Going by your account I think you did just right, and handled it very well.

You did not draw, you did not brandish. I cannot conceive of a valid argument to suggest you did wrong, based on your account. What's wrong with standing up and speaking assertively?

To suggest that you behaved inappropriately because the guy was black to me smacks of blissninny-style racism. Should you be vigilant with whites and not with blacks?

A lot of people become victims of crime because they're afraid of appearing rude or insensitive when criminals approach them.

Sounds to me like this guy was moving in for the "interview", and you passed the interview. Good for you. The way you describe his reaction seems to confirm that you were right. Did you upset a poor disadvantaged citizen? Were you rude and insensitive? Oh boo hoo.

Good for you.
 
Imagine how a fighter pilot feels, your here and you'll never know, unless you read about it in a couple weeks that someone got robbed or worse by a guy fitting that description. When your out and about stay alert, usually you can see stuff that is about to happen to others before yourself.
 
Well, if you recognize you are in the poo, too late. You are in the poo. Something made this guy seem like more than just an ordinary guy and a potential threat to you. Only you know what that something was. You never drew or freaked out, which is good. Coulda been a bum trying to hit you up for money and nothing more. I've been approached by bums and warned them to back off and get their hands out of their pockets before talking to me. Nothing wrong with that.
 
Honestly maybe he just wanted a dollar and freaked out because everyone knows that if you reach like that its for a weapon. I can't tell you. Judging from the way you described him you didn't enjoy the way he looked. Or you didn't like that he was a crackhead or homeless person. The hands thing was a good call. Again, you did the right thing. If his hands were out in the open then I might call it an over reaction. But its not. Guy could have had a knife or a shank or anything really.
But again, when anyone takes a defensive posture like you described it means something. When I take the defensive posture, I rotate my hips so my weak side is forward, which is the left, and my right foot back with my right hand reaching to the 4 o'clock. Dude figured it out. This thought was either that "o ****, he's gonna shoot me if I ask for a dollar" or "crap I picked the wrong mark"
I doubt he was there to fight because its 2 against 1 and if he's homeless he's hungry and doesn't have strength.
 
You've done well.

Remember, humans are the only animals which try to rationalize away the fear instinct. Listen to your instincts: they'll keep you alive.
 
I think you did everything right. You did not show your weapon, you did not threaten him....you just paid attention to your surroundings. You were ready if things went bad.....good for you.
 
There are certain actions that makes me react automatically without thinking. Occasionally I even react to the wife if she was sneaky enough without meaning it. But drawing? No. Not just yet.

I have had OTHERS react the way you did and I would put both hands where they can see them, palm down towards ground and greet them and apolgize for disturbing them and move on at a right angle to thier body posture.

The key for me is ho hum, easy does it nothing fast.

I dont have a problem with this write up. I think it was the friend who may have been rather asleep and slow at the switch.

=)
 
I'd say you did fine. If you ever get that "feeling" that something isn't right, then it probably isn't right.
 
Given your description of the event, it seems to me you acted reasonably.

One thing of which I am sure is if one is seated at a table and someone with dangerous intentions approaches rapidly, to try and take defensive measures while seated is extremely awkward.

I'd have stood up, too. Best to be on your feet if an "attack" takes place.

Never hurts to be alert.

L.W.
 
Just speaking from personal experience, the way I get my mind set so I'll react as I hope I should is to play games in my mind, ie, what if? Just play those made up senerios over and over in your mind until your are prepared. It is basically train, train, train, until instinct takes over in a crisis. It sounds to me like you did well.
 
I mean how often do random crackheads come and talk to you outside?


Yes, all the time. It's called being outside, here.


Yeah, so you over reacted a little bit, you seemed to have scared the shtuff out of him.
but its okay. live, learn, repeat.
No one was harmed, and he obviously caught you off guard, and that startled you. Just be more observant and less aggressive.
Glad nothing big happened, friend.
 
Sorry - but I disagree. When you enter my "space", I WILL react - to fail to do so is not only foolish, but plain dangerous. I am NOT going to remain seated when an unknown street person (or anyone else out of place) approaches me. And when I'm seated in an open area with lots of empty space around and someone approaches me, I WILL rise and "assume the position".
EVERY defense situation I've ever seen dictates that the LAST thing you want to do is to be seated when a potential adversary is standing - period. NEVER give the "high ground" to someone.
As to the "racist" slant some have given....well, sorry - make the person white, and I'm betting the OP would've reacted in the same way. There is no such thing as a "harmless" drug addict - someone high (especially on crack) is totally unpredictable, and you'd BEST be prepared to take any necessary action when approached by such a person.
I've broken arms, collarbones and ribs on folks drunk/high/not in control of their faculties - and lemme tell you, you can NOT bet that it's going to stop 'em. Watched a partner take 3 rounds to his torso from a .38, and he STILL was able to take a suspect down simply because his adrenaline had kicked in. I've seen tazed suspects keep on going despite repeated "hits" simply because their body isn't reacting normally - so no - I am not going to sit by and "hope" that they're not going to hurt me or someone with me. I'll take the position, and let the chips fall where they may. Those of you who feel the OP over-reacted, lemme tell you - if you REALLY feel that way, stop carrying - because someone WILL end up taking it from you!
I mean nothing personal here guys - but I am trying to "teach" you that you can NOT sit when a potential threat approaches because you're worried about "over reacting". Had he pulled the gun, yeah - he'd have been over the top. But he simply put himself into the best possible defensive position - and THAT was the right thing to do!
 
"...he was definitely a crackhead/homeless person...ugly yellow teeth and a dress about him...seemed too warmly layered for our warm weather..." And? Any threatening gestures/movements? Or did you just react to his appearance? You knew the guy was a homeless druggie how?
"...the way he lied at the end..." You knew this how? If it was a young, white, girl, would it have made a difference?
Didn't you get threat evaluation as part of your CCW course? Sounds like a relatively harmless guy looking for a handout to me. How you carry yourself, CCW or not, determines whether or not predators will see you as a victim/prey.
Overreact? Yep. No threat involved. You reacted to a black guy walking near you and you can't remember what, if anything, he said. Defend that in court.
 
Sorry, Sunray - you're wrong. Period. He did NOT use/threaten Deadly Force. He DID reinforce the fact that the person approaching them was unwelcome, and took prudent steps to prepare.
The fact that the individual that approached him was slurring his words were yet another sign that he might not be in full control of his normal faculties. Even if the guy was "only" drunk - I've seen drunks take swings/pull knives for no apparent reason.

"Uh-oh is ALWAYS too late!!"
 
Sorry Sunray. You missed it this time around.

Ive seen people (Of any kind, color or sex) try to draw me into a situation that seemed.. innocent.. got a light? Time? and a moment later the trap is spring.

If it was a young white girl as you put it... no difference. Boy, Girl, Black, white, red, purple, brown.. no different. Martin? Well... :neener:

That harmless person looking for a dollar is usually attempting to "Get within striking range" or close enough to pull something.

Sorry, no dollars here. I might get up and go away. Dont follow me. Have a nice day!

Oh by the way, I did all of that without benefit of any kind of weapon, CCW or things of that nature. Now that I am involved with such things, I must even more carefully to ensure that the situation must never be allowed to escalate. They teach you to avoid the need to draw in CCW class.

Avoiding problems is good. Because then you are up and and firiring on all cylinders (Pun not intended) while a less alert marked person will become prey to a crime.

Pretense, guile and ruses are among the most cunning and dangerous of tatics designed to lure, lull or otherwise tame a hard target into a nice soft sleepy bunny ripe for the petting.

Sorry, not me.
 
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Read this at the original site to take advantage of embedded links...

lpl
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http://www.nononsenseselfdefense.com/interview.htm

A danger foreseen is half avoided

Interview

This is where the criminal decides if you are safe to attack.

Yes, with all violence, the assailant's safety is a critical factor in deciding whether or not to attack. If a criminal was truly mentally ill, he would feel compelled to act, even if there was no chance whatsoever of success. If someone is so emotionally outraged that he were truly "out of control" he would not hesitate to physically assault ten Hells Angels. The fact that he doesn't indicates that there is still a part of them that is calculating risk to themselves.

"Can I get away with it?" is a major motivation for what people decide to do -- or not do. Hence, the interview.

This is one interview you want to fail. If you fail, the assailant decides that he cannot successfully, or easily, attack you. Then if he is a criminal, he will proceed to seek easier prey. In the case of an emotionally upset individual, he will change tactics. For example instead of physically assaulting you he will proceed to stand back and proceed to verbally abuse you. This allows him to 'win' without putting himself at physical risk.

There are five basic types of interviews. The one a criminal uses depends more on his personal style than anything else.

Regular - This is the most common form of interview for muggers. The criminal will approach you under the guise of normalcy, i.e., needing information or small item (e.g. matches). This is a distraction. While he is talking, he is not only getting in position to attack, but a) checking your awareness about what he is doing and b) your commitment to defending yourself.

This is why you should always be careful when someone approaches you in a fringe area and asks for something. Your answer should always be "no" and insist on him keeping his distance. Both muggers and stranger rapists often use this technique.

Hot – Hot interviews are sudden and unexpected emotional blitzkriegs against you. They just "pop out of nowhere." You are minding your own business one minute, and the next you have a threatening, obscenity-spouting, screaming person charging down on you. The success of this strategy relies on you not being accustomed to dealing with extreme emotional violence and reacting in a stunned and confused manner. You must be willing to immediately shift into an extreme of physical violence to fail such interviews. Paradoxically, if you can immediately display this commitment, the attacker will often abort.

Escalating - Unlike a hot interview, which starts out immediately hostile, an escalating interview starts out normally but it rapidly turns hostile. The person or people test(s) your boundaries by escalating outrageous behavior. Every time he is not slapped down (i.e., he is successful), his behavior becomes more and more extreme until finally he attacks. This is very common interview for date rapists. It is also common when you walk into the middle of a group of loitering young thugs, what "supposedly" starts out with them "jes messin' witcha" escalates into a robbery or assault. Sometimes both.

Silent – A silent interview is when a criminal puts himself in a position to observe you. He may never speak until the attack, but he has been watching all along. He may position himself out of sight in a parking structure and follow you. Or he may make his presence known and decide to attack if you show fear of his presence

Prolonged - An interview can take anywhere from mere moments (hot) to weeks (prolonged). Prolonged interviews are often combined with other types Being stalked is prolonged escalation. A serial rapist can silently watch a victim for days. Whereas a bunko scam would be prolonged regular interview while the con artist attempts to win your trust. With prolonged interviews, the intent is seldom obvious from the beginning, therefore having the first four levels of the Pyramid of Personal Safety in place becomes of critical importance.
 
Great Post.

Now think in multipules.

One person stumbling across you on the city sidewalk and tripping, vomiting or staggering all over you and your shoes, stuff etc.

While you are extremely annoyed and dealing with this... this.. icky.. trash, your pocket gets picked by a silent partner. You are too consumed in emotional conflict between wanting to help this.. sick person or perhaps wondering what the hell? Even inaction while you freeze is action for a predator to take advantage of.

If done right, it will be hours before you realized you been robbed.


For me some of the greatest (Not celebratory or supportive of the bad guys...) is the kind where two will pick a fight with each other drawing YOU and your family into the fray somehow and while all that is going round... numbers three through five are executing thier parts in the carefully spring trap. You see this most at Casinos when people try to cash large amounts of winnings. Here they are standing in a middle of a fight over here, loud argument over there and security wrestling here and they stand dumbstruck while another grabs the cup with the chips.

I always leave a casino looking angry at losing all my damn money.
 
Lets see ... no one got hurt, every body got to go home, the sketchy guy left you two alone, and other than you and sketchy guy, nobody else was even aware that anything went on.

I can't envision of a =better= outcome. Sounds like you did just fine to me.
 
Based on your description I think you did a great job indeed. Listening to you "gut feel" is crucial but something too many people suppress: they are called victims.

Think about it: what possible reason would this guy have for walking up to your table? Maybe asking for money, maybe "selling" something, maybe planning on taking something, etc.

You showed him, quite clearly, that you had no intention of getting into any sort of exchange with him.

Candidly I think if more folks did what you did the more aggressive panhandlers (and the like) would become much less so. I'm sure I'll get nailed for this suggestion :) !

Nice work.

DFW1911
 
Panhandlers? Have not seen any in my area since I moved myself OUT of a large city filled with panhandlers. Thinking back on it, I realized that I have not seen a panhandler in soooo long I might have to go downtown near the likker store soon to have a encounter to stay in practice.
 
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