Went for condition yellow to near Red in one millisecond

[LaVere]

Today at about 2:00 this afternoon. I walked in the a local convenience store to get a Dove bar. When I walked in my attention changes in 1 millisecond to near red. The store was charged with stress. A female clerk eyes were darting around and kind of wide. She was waiting on another female customer but looking beyond that customer. There was a male clerk also at the check out. He sounded ok but I could not see his face and he was waiting on a female customer. That look ok to me.
I scanned the store behind the counter and the open door to the back room behind the male clerk. As I placed my items on the counted. The cause of the stress reentered the store. A rather large spaced out person with baggy clothes. Approched the same counter where I was, I decided to back off. He was between me and the door so I just backed away from him partly down an isle to conseal and give me some cover.
He had been in the store before, just a few minute before I entered and at that time he also gave the clerks a hard time. It sounded like he want to buy something but didn't have the money.
After much loud discussion and a absolute NO from the male clerk, he left in a huff.
I removed my hand from my CCW (Kahr K-40), it was still concealed, paid for my Dove bars and left the store. I continued to watch him walk away as I go into my car.

Now sitting at my computer it does not sound like much. Like my dog does, my hackles were up. I felt it could go any way in just seconds.

Again, I am glad to have my weapon with me and also not to have to use it.

 

[pax]

LaVere ~

Glad everything came out okay. I'm not getting on your case; the questions below are only questions.

The store was charged with stress. A female clerk eyes were darting around and kind of wide. She was waiting on another female customer but looking beyond that customer.

First question: when you saw that something was "wrong," why did you keep going into the store? What was your thought process at that point?

There was a male clerk also at the check out. He sounded ok but I could not see his face and he was waiting on a female customer. That look ok to me.
I scanned the store behind the counter and the open door to the back room behind the male clerk.

When you saw an open door into the back room, did it occur to you that someone could be there, out of sight? Were you thinking about possible scenarios at that point, or were you still "just looking"?

As I placed my items on the counted. The cause of the stress reentered the store. A rather large spaced out person with baggy clothes. Approched the same counter where I was, I decided to back off.

When you decided to back off, was there a reason you didn't just head straight out the door? What was your plan?

Also, did you have a cell phone with you? If you did, had you thought about using it? Or did it all happen too fast?

thanks,

pax

 

[f4t9r]

CCW is a great thing , Keep in mind and know the laws because it does not give the right to play Police. A good example is the one you just encountered. One had better know the whole story before comming with a gun and taking action. You can get yourself in a real pickle. Do not get me wrong you handled the ordeal well and would have been ready if needed. Some people tend to not know all the right reasons and laws for a CCW.
Just do not want people to think they can go around looking for a reason to use one. Not directed at you but the story and others I have heard made me think that some are just a little to itchy
Nice job and you were very alert to what was going on , even though you just walked in.
PAX good questions for anyone in a tuff spot

 

[Bob F.]

Good posts! LaVere: well done. It's a strange, strange world out there. On a force on force scenario I participated in, CCW comes upon a scene where man w/ knife is holding female on ground. Reality is she has attacked him and he has disarmed her and waiting for cops while she's screaming and fighting. Could easily happen.

If I walk into a stop-n-rob and don't immediately seen a clerk, all my hackles stand straight up, immediately! Narrowly missed walking in on a rape at s-n-r one night.

Been a freaky night here tonight, including, but not limited to, thunder n'lightening in late December.

Stay safe.
Bob

 

[The-Fly]

had a similar experience a few days ago. Was out walking my two mutts, and a pretty damn large german shepard decided to greet us in a unfriendly manner.

Tactical details:
carrying a glock26 in a ctac, loaded HST 147gr.
Both my dogs weigh 15 and 30 pounds respectively, and were leashed.
I was on a public sidewalk, and the offending shepard closed at a fairly rapid pace to within 20 feet growling and snarling at us.

I had my hand on the grip, and was about one bad nerve twitch from drawing on the offending mutt. Fortunately he decided a few growls, snarls, and barks was enough, and walked away.

 

[AStone]

Somthin' ain't right

LaVere, thanks for sharing your experience. I'm sure it will motivate a good discussion. Some will be supportive of you, others may criticize. But we will all learn from your experience. Thanks.

Pax for Pres, 20__.

Been a freaky night here tonight, including, but not limited to, thunder n'lightening in late December.

Along with unseasonal wildfires in OK & TX; heavy rains on the west coast; an unprededented hurricane season; snow storms in UK & France...

Anyone notice anything strange about the climate?

Climate change seems afoot.

Not putting the responsibility for that on any given factor, human or otherwise. Just noticing something ... is not right.

Just like LaVere noticed when he walked into that convenience store: somethin' ain't right.

What now?

Nem

 

[another okie]

"Along with unseasonal wildfires in OK & TX; heavy rains on the west coast; an unprededented hurricane season; snow storms in UK & France..."

No offense, but these are weather, not climate. Weather is short term. Climate is long term. Weather is always highly variable from year to year. There's no "normal."

 

[AStone]

No offense, but these are weather, not climate. Weather is short term. Climate is long term. Weather is always highly variable from year to year. There's no "normal."

I won't try to turn this thread into a climate change discussion but...

No offense to you, either, Okie, but I teach college-level classes in climate change. For those of us who have been studying this issue in some detail for several years, it's clear: the climate IS changing. The changes are too frequent & widespread to be blamed on local variations.

We do agree strongly on one point, however: there is no normal. Weather events are not distributed according to the Gaussian curve (bell-shaped or normal) except over short time periods. Instead, weather is better described by power law distributions like log normal. That accounts extreme climate shifts.

What's the cause of the changes? Natural, human or both? I'm not saying, but the fact is that greenhouse gas composition of the atmosphere (inferred from ice core data in Greenland & Antarctica) is statistically significantly higher than they've been in at least 430,000 years. (You can search that one on the web.)

One of my students is a respected, conservative local TV meterologist who was a skeptic before taking my classes. Now, he's convinced like I am: chances that this is a short term weather phenomenon are quite small. It's a climate shift.

Even the well-respected World Meteorological Organization, normally quite conservative in their reports, noted in 2003 that extreme weather phenomena are on the increase and they are climate related.

Those of us who are studying it know that something is afoot. You may disbelieve it if you wish, as many on this forum do. That's an individual choice.

But I still encourage all to imagine the following: what if it did change rapidly & significantly? Would you be ready?

Want more info to make an informed decision? Here is the best single, scientifically-grounded, politically unbiased source of information on the web, IMO. It's a HUGE site, and would take weeks to digest. But it's free.

OK, sorry for the tangent. Back to convenience store tensions...

Nem

 

[DirtyBrad]

On a force on force scenario I participated in, CCW comes upon a scene where man w/ knife is holding female on ground. Reality is she has attacked him and he has disarmed her and waiting for cops while she's screaming and fighting. Could easily happen.

I saw this exact same thing when working at a deli a few stores down from a bar. This drunk girl is out in the parking lot screaming at her boyfriend. He's trying to calm her down and she's swinging at him and scratching. After seeing it was only getting worse, we called the cops and kept watching to make sure it didn't get serious before they showed (and because it was pretty funny).

She's getting madder and madder and trying to hit him. He's staying calm. The worst he did was kind of grab her and pull her down for a minute when she was trying to get at his face, but we all thought he was showing a lot of restraint.

Two cops roll up and immediately cuff the guy and sit him down against the cruiser wheel, temporarily ignoring the woman. While they're talking to him, she reaches in her purse, pulls out mace, and lets the guy have it.

Obviously, it's reasonable for them to get him under control immediately, but it was a good reminder about assuming.

 

[LaVere]

reply

Thank you all for the replies. When I walked into the store he was not there. It was after I was in and near the counter that he returned to the store.
Now he was between me and the only exit. The shortest way out I would have to brush past him and I didn't want to do that. I thought at the time just to back away, keep still, and watch only. Oh yes prepare to defend myself.

The direction the Lady clerk was looking was not towards the door behind the counter. So I assumed nothing going on that direction.

While sitting here the next day at the computer. My thoughts are.
1. Even if he pulled a gun. I would not have shot him.
2. If he shot the clerk and NEVER turned my direction I would not have shot him.
My gun would be out and pointed at center of mass.
3. If he turned or started to turn my direction and there was an immediate threat to my life or another person. 2 to COM 1 or more to Head.

Wow my hind sight is so cool and detatched.

 

[dasmi]

Like my dog does, my hackles were up. I felt it could go any way in just seconds.

When I get that feeling, I get out of where ever I happen to be, quickly.

 

[pax]

Now he was between me and the only exit. The shortest way out I would have to brush past him and I didn't want to do that.

Figured it was something like that, but it wasn't clear from your first post. Good call.

I thought at the time just to back away, keep still, and watch only. Oh yes prepare to defend myself.

And head for concealment/cover. Very smart.

The direction the Lady clerk was looking was not towards the door behind the counter. So I assumed nothing going on that direction.

Trying to picture it, but I think that open door would probably still have bothered me a little. Hard to say. Certainly you did well to trust your own instincts.

While sitting here the next day at the computer. My thoughts are.
1. Even if he pulled a gun. I would not have shot him.
2. If he shot the clerk and NEVER turned my direction I would not have shot him.
My gun would be out and pointed at center of mass.
3. If he turned or started to turn my direction and there was an immediate threat to my life or another person. 2 to COM 1 or more to Head.

My line in the sand is a little further out than yours.

Agreed about #1, mostly.

But I'm thinking I would shoot if/when #2 came up, or even before that if it was obvious he was going to kill the clerk before he did it. Reason being that once someone starts killing, all bets are off, and that every second of delay in dealing with him gives him another second to spot the witness (me!). Since action beats reaction, if he had already decided to kill the witness(es) when he spotted me, I wouldn't have time to bring my own gun up before he fired. So if he looked like he was going to kill the clerk, even if he hadn't seen me yet, and if I couldn't leave the premises, I'd have fired to defend my own life.

Um. I think.

Wow my hind sight is so cool and detatched.

Yeah, funny how that works... Human beings are wired weird.

pax

 

[TexasRifleman]

2. If he shot the clerk and NEVER turned my direction I would not have shot him.
My gun would be out and pointed at center of mass.
3. If he turned or started to turn my direction and there was an immediate threat to my life or another person. 2 to COM 1 or more to Head.

Not to nit pick but you've said 2 opposing things here.

In #2 you will witness a murder but not intervene to help a third party, but in #3 you say you'll intervene if there is immediate threat to another person.

These are the kinds of things you need to have decided before the situation arises. Will you or will you not defend a third person.

It's a personal choice, but could you live with yourself if you were in a position to stop #2 but did nothing?

 

[gremlin_bros]

ok heres my 2 cents worth its just how i think and have been trained. so take it as my openion and we all know what they say about openions.
it is good to look back at what happened and break it down to what you did and could have done and what if this or that had happened.
but dont pick it to death this serves nothing but to make you question yourself. i mean hey your were the one there and you made the call not us so dont let the monday morning quarter backing get to you to much. let it give you ideas and think about them but do not obsess over them. like i said too much is a bad thing.
thats just my 2 cents worth on this.

 

[Hook686]

...

While sitting here the next day at the computer. My thoughts are.
1. Even if he pulled a gun. I would not have shot him.
2. If he shot the clerk and NEVER turned my direction I would not have shot him.
My gun would be out and pointed at center of mass.
3. If he turned or started to turn my direction and there was an immediate threat to my life or another person. 2 to COM 1 or more to Head.

....

I am constantly concerned with the number of folks out and about that are practiced in their minds the action of pulling a gun. It seems to me that what one fears will befall him, or her ... think about it long enough, and it will happen. My thought is, that assuming, as has been suggested, that 60% of the people have a loaded gun with them, pulling a gun will lead to just that, more folks pulling their guns. Some of these stories downright scare me, as to who has a loaded gun with them, CCW, or not.

 

[ka50]

Thank you all for the replies. When I walked into the store he was not there. It was after I was in and near the counter that he returned to the store.
Now he was between me and the only exit. The shortest way out I would have to brush past him and I didn't want to do that. I thought at the time just to back away, keep still, and watch only. Oh yes prepare to defend myself.

The direction the Lady clerk was looking was not towards the door behind the counter. So I assumed nothing going on that direction.

While sitting here the next day at the computer. My thoughts are.
1. Even if he pulled a gun. I would not have shot him.
2. If he shot the clerk and NEVER turned my direction I would not have shot him.
My gun would be out and pointed at center of mass.
3. If he turned or started to turn my direction and there was an immediate threat to my life or another person. 2 to COM 1 or more to Head.

Wow my hind sight is so cool and detatched.

If he pulled a gun on the clerk, you SHOULD have shot him, in the back of the head, no questions asked.

If he starts shooting the clerk, you have to stop him right there (actually you had to stop him after he pulled a gun out)

He should never have a chance to turn into your direction during an armed robbery and you're behind him with a gun.

I'm not a lawyer, but this seems to be fairly reasonable use of force. Have u ever seen videos of armed robberies gone wrong (not the ones you see on TV)?

p.s. get deadly force use training or read a few books. If you're not ready to swiftly use deadly force when lives are in danger, you'll put yourself and others in even greater danger.

 

[TexasRifleman]

I am constantly concerned with the number of folks out and about that are practiced in their minds the action of pulling a gun. It seems to me that what one fears will befall him, or her ... think about it long enough, and it will happen.

So if I buy a fireproof safe and put my crap in it will my house burn down?

I think about fire safety, am I looking for a forest fire?
I think about auto safety, I think about which way I would turn on this or that road if the guy in front of me slams on the brakes.
I think about what I would do if the electricity went off.

Thinking about a plan of action if something bad happens is not in any way tied to whether or not that bad thing actually happens.

I hope YOU don't carry a gun at all, since you have not given any thought as to when or not when you would use it to protect yourself or someone else. THAT is truly dangerous.

 

[LaVere]

A month later

Thank you all for the nice replys. Some I understood others I did not. But they were all nice to read.
Thank you again while I think and rethink this event. I go to a range atleast once a month and shoot 100 + rounds each times. Just to stay in tune so to speak. I have taken advanced pistols training but I am not expert at any of it.
I'm just a 63 year old , 250 pound senior citizens that want to protect myself.

 

[ball3006]

What if.......

the clerk had been a relative or friend of yours?? chris3

 

[tellner]

One of the best lessons I ever had in awareness came from my then-puppy, Papillon. She's always been Miss Canine Personality. Other dogs like her. She loves everyone. Except the mailman, but that kind of goes without saying.

One day when she was still learning the "don't pee in the house" thing I took her out for her nighttime walk. As soon as we got out the door she started growling and barking. Across the street, in the mist, was a group of young men who didn't live in the neighborhood, without women, standing around and not talking to each other. Loud warning sirens should start going off for everyone. After a "Killer dog, dude!" from one of them and a "Heel, Fang!" from me we continued the walk. When we got back she lay down facing the door, ears up, until they went away. She was only a five month old puppy, but she knew how to spot trouble.

Now she's taken a real dislike to the new people who live across the street. As far as I know they've never interacted with her, but she still barks when they come out of their house. From the time they moved in something about them was a little disturbing. I'm going to trust that feeling a bit more.