What’s the limiting factor of 45acp?

[Terry G]

What made me think is "Modern 9MM ammunition now carries enough knock down power as a .45 ACP". Yeah, but .45 Ammunition has not been standing still either.

 

[nvcdl]

Biggest limiting factor of 45acp is the fat cartridge limits mag capacity. I was carrying a 45acp Shield for awhile but that pistol with a spare mag limited me to 15 rds total. I decided to start carrying a 40s&w Glock 23 P80 with a full size spare mag to get a total of 29 rds. I think the 40s&w is a better woods cartridge and penetrates better. With hard cast bullets I'd be comfortable with it in bear country.

 

[InTheSwamp]

Biggest limiting factor of 45acp is the fat cartridge limits mag capacity.

Beat me to it.

 

[halfmoonclip]

Because if you commercially produce and market something outside of SAAMI specs,
and a mishap occurs, the lawyers will eat your lunch. That's why.

CIP applies in Europe.

And we're not Elmer Keith, upping the ante until we take the top strap off an SAA. Let's stay inside the guidelines.
Moon

 

[cfullgraf]

Sometimes short, fat and slow just has to do.
Moon

Road and Track magazine had a photo back in the early 1970's showing Juan Manual Fangio, a five time Formula One champion, looking at the current for the day Formula One wide car slicks. The caption read, "I remember when drivers were fat and tires were skinny."

Apologizes for the thread distraction.

And as a horse-killer for mounted troops and/or Cavalry. Mounted use is the "why" for having the various safeties, also all the lanyard loops.


Hey, I resemble that!

I understand that the Cavalry was involved in the selection of the 45 ACP round. It was replacing the 38 Colt revolver round that had poor performance against the Moro Indians in the Philippines during the Philippine-American war around the early 1900's.

The Cavalry was still a mainstream part of the army back then.

I like heavy, slow moving bullets like 45 ACP and 45 Colt for their momentum, not so much for energy. If i was out in the woods, I'd probably choose a round more suitabke for dangerous game,.

 

[Shawn Dodson]

180gr 10mm has the same sectional density as .45 caliber 230gr.

Therefore 180gr is to 10mm what 230gr is to .45 ACP, except 10mm can propel the lighter bullet much faster.

 

[BLACKHAWKNJ]

As Jeff Cooper told a reader "As much as I favor the 45, I wear a 44 in bear country."

 

[halfmoonclip]

The caption read, "I remember when drivers were fat and tires were skinny."

I actually remember seeing that picture and caption. Although, apparently the Formula 1 guys are back to being pretty buff, just to deal with the exertion and G-forces.

I understand that the Cavalry was involved in the selection of the 45 ACP round. It was replacing the 38 Colt revolver round that had poor performance against the Moro Indians in the Philippines during the Philippine-American war around the early 1900's.

We have to remember the blackpowder heritage, when the only means of getting more power was increasing caliber and throweight. Punkin' rollers were the only option, or so it seemed.
The original loading of the .45ACP remains an impressive manstopper, still most pleasantly fired in a GI-sized 1911.
Moon

 

[CapnMac]

The Cavalry was still a mainstream part of the army back then.

More than just the Cavalry. Using tucks to move troops around was a decade or two in the future.

You needed troops moved faster than walking pace, you put them on horses. So, a significant portion of the Infantry was Mounted, but not Cavalry--they carried rifles not swords and lances (and Carbines, if Dragoons).

Also, Artillery all moved via horses, typically six horses to the tube, and four or si per caisson of ammo. The Engineers also were Mounted. And, of course, Supply and Quartermasters were all mounted.

Horses get into misadventures, so you need a reliable, humane, horse killer as a matter of course. And, Artillery and Engineers were combatant forces, they needed the ability to repel armed attacks (potentially by enemy cavalry scouts). Those events would have been surprise encounters, at close-in, pistol sorts of ranges. And having that fat slow punch to bring down either an enemy trooper or his mount was a real consideration.

 

[lysanderxiii]

Biggest limiting factor of 45acp is the fat cartridge limits mag capacity. I was carrying a 45acp Shield for awhile but that pistol with a spare mag limited me to 15 rds total. I decided to start carrying a 40s&w Glock 23 P80 with a full size spare mag to get a total of 29 rds. I think the 40s&w is a better woods cartridge and penetrates better. With hard cast bullets I'd be comfortable with it in bear country.

A .45 inch diameter bullet in a .36 inch diameter case wouldn't feed very well . . .

 

[lysanderxiii]

S

Because if you commercially produce and market something outside of SAAMI specs,
and a mishap occurs, the lawyers will eat your lunch. That's why.

CIP applies in Europe.

SAAMI didn't create the specifications, so I still do not see how it is their fault.

 

[TTv2]

180gr 10mm has the same sectional density as .45 caliber 230gr.

Therefore 180gr is to 10mm what 230gr is to .45 ACP, except 10mm can propel the lighter bullet much faster.

10mm can shoot a 200gr bullet faster and hold more rounds.

 

[BLACKHAWKNJ]

Bill Jordan said the 38 Special was the most powerful round the average man-i.e., most of us-could expect to master, the 45 ACP is the semiauto equivalent.

 

[CDW4ME]

Using Underwood ammo:
https://underwoodammo.com/45-acp-p-255gr-flat-nose-black-cherry-coated-hard-cast-hunting-ammo/
https://underwoodammo.com/10mm-auto-220gr.-flat-nose-black-cherry-coated-hard-cast-hunting-ammo/
45 acp 255 gr. advertised as hard cast hunting ammo to include large & dangerous game has 485# KE
10mm 220 gr. advertised as hard cast hunting ammo to include large & dangerous game has 704# KE
Glock 21 holds 14 rounds of 45 acp which is good.
Glock 20 holds 16 rounds of 10mm which is arguably better.

 

[KnightHawk]

Alright, just to be clear I can’t shoot a 1911 worth beans. I’ve tried. I started with the 1911 before all the boutique calibers came out or at least were common. I do shoot the 9mm in a 92FS very well, but that’s a 9mm. Ok for social work but that’s about it.
Not warm and fuzzy with the semi automatic. Where I live social work is not much of a consideration, but 4 legged verity with claws is a consideration. So the semiautomatic has never been considered.

But I love the 45 ACP and the 45 AR. All that is needed is the correct platform, the 6 gun. I have a 4 inch 625 and a 4 inch 22-4, both of which shoot beautifully. But the standard loadings are just on the lighter side. The old 455’s - 457’s would load a 290 grain bullet at a sedate velocity but carried a considerable penetration.
After doing some research I started looking for a bullet mold about 290 - 300 grains to experiment with. NOE offered a 304 .452 diameter mold that looked pretty good. Handloader had one article 15 years ago that worked with the 45 AR and slugs to 285.
Now I’m going by memory on all of this as my shop and notes are 2500 miles from where I am currently. I’m doing a little snow birding.
But the listed COL was right at 1.285 with velocities of 900 fps or so. Memory here again.
But with the to pistols I have both with throats of .452 I could load this bullet out to a COL of 1.385 and just have the bullet laying just in the throat of the cylinder. This would leave a bit more room in the boiler room which could help keep pressure down.
My goal is 900 fps with the 304 grain bullet. I started working with Bullseye and have reached 785 fps when life stepped in and testing stopped. I have one more bullseye loading of a couple tenths more powder for the last of the Bullseye testing with the next step going with Unique and 2400 which should work better for this heavy slug.


The 304 NOE compared to a standard 230 grain ball cartridge. As you can see there is no danger of the 304 working in a 1911 or other semiautomatic.
Most of the diet for the pistols will be 255 grain bullets in the 800 fps loadings but I always work up a heavy bullet load for any gun I own for uninvited guests.
And don’t go to “well just get a 45 LC”. Yeah, yeah, yeah. There’s the Smith 25 and the Ruger RH in 45LC, everything else is a single action. I’m a double action guy. I do have a 4 inch Ruger Red Hawk in 45LC and 45ACP coming in trade, but it’s still not a Smith.

 

[Otto]

Biggest limiting factor of 45acp is the fat cartridge limits mag capacity.

My Springfield 1911 double-stack has a capacity of 14 +1.
The real limiting factor with 45acp is it’s weight. Stuff a 1911 with 15 rounds of 230 gr and you’ll see what I mean. Even a CZ 97 with 10+1 rounds is a handful.

 

[Dave T]

Reading many of the responses here I can't help but wonder exactly what kind of Zombie Apocalypse do some of you think you're going to get into. Twenty nine rounds on you! You shoot half that many people in a gang they're still going to label you a mass shooter. Then you real problems will begin.

Get real people,
Dave

 

[LV Gun]

45 ACP FMJ will shoot through two full-size gelatin blocks back-to-back and keep going.

45 ACP with expando bullets penetrates to the same depth as all other major calibers shooting expando bullets.

So what's the issue?

Remember too, there's 45 Super. Works on most 45 ACP guns without any modification. Except you might want to see how it functions with heavier recoil spring to minimize beating the gun up. 45 Super uses a case that is thicker in the web, because the first limiting factor on "hot-rodding" 45 ACP is the brass cartridge-case, and not the guns that shoot it.

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Only issue I see is 45 ACP guns tend to be the heaviest, and carry a few less rounds. Maybe somebody will bring up 10mm and "bears" or some such. OK, bears then. If you're gonna shoot a bear with a handgun, be sure to shoot a bullet that doesn't have a real conical-shaped nose. Because any bullet at handgun speed does risk bouncing off bone on its way to wherever bullets that bounce off bone go. Remember, you are 99.9% more likely to be attacked by a crack-head in a wife-beater than a bear. Probably even in Alaska. So there's that.

You shouldn't have to spend a fortune on 45 Super ammo, because how many bears will you really have to shoot?

Now, if you want a lightweight, high(ish) capacity carry piece, get you one of the plastic-fantastic guns that are popular these days. Then and head on out to the 7-11 for a corn dog and some smokes. Aint gotta dress up like John Wayne to go everywhere. Not that I would hold it against you if you did.

Love 45 super I have one of them a Springfield V-16 Long Slide 1911 great cartridge great gun it came with both springs a 18 lb for 45 auto and a 22 lb for 45 Super …… 45 Super is a very powerful cartridge when loaded close to max before you try to load these in a 45 Auto gun you need to see a competent gun smith you don’t want to eat the slide it does happen and I have seen it happen this cartridge like the Rowland version shows how capable the 45 can be .

 

[nvcdl]

My Springfield 1911 double-stack has a capacity of 14 +1.
The real limiting factor with 45acp is it’s weight. Stuff a 1911 with 15 rounds of 230 gr and you’ll see what I mean. Even a CZ 97 with 10+1 rounds is a handful.

29 rounds is a good minimum if you get into an active shooter situation. For most self defense a revolver might suffice.

 

[Double Naught Spy]

Me and my brother in law were in a conversation the other night about this caliber. He recently purchased a 10mm and I am purchasing a ruger Blackhawk 45 colt. We both mentioned that we had looked at 45 acp but after really looking at it it’s really a pretty narrow use cartridge as far as bullet specs atleast factory ammo. Good for self defense but not for hunting really or wilderness protection against bears, large predators. We wondered why can’t the 45 acp equal a 10mm? It has heavier bullets but why can’t it be souped up to similar power? Is it the case? Firearms? Just no interest? What am I missing?

Narrow use? Really? Not good for protection against bears? Apparently, virtually any pistol is good against bears, even with lesser calibers. Some of Weingarten's data are screwy, but the vast majority of his examples are accurate. https://www.ammoland.com/2023/11/ha...-bears-170-documented-incidents-98-effective/

It wasn't designed as a wilderness protection round. It is military/personal defense round.

True, but design intent doesn't determine actual real world usefulness, right? In fact, sometimes design intent turns out to be a failure, though the product developed ends of working very well in other areas. Listerine was designed as a floor cleaner and not a mouthwash, LOL. Rogaine was designed as blood pressure treatment. Know anyone taking Rogaine for their blood pressure? Probably not.

The 6.8 SPC was designed to be a military cartridge, only the military didn't adopt it. Hog and deer hunters really seem to like it.

The .308 was also designed form military/personal defense as well, but nobody is questioning design intent for hunters or sport shooters.

Design intent only has to do with what the designer hopes to accomplish. That does not rule it out for other applications.

And to bring this full circle to the OP, the 10mm wasn't designed for hunting or big game defense either. That wasn't the design intent, but seems to do fine.

 

[JDeere]

.45 Auto taking care of business for over 100 years being big and slow as some put it. Round count is not important if you call your shots. The fire fights that people view on the screen dumping mags will not take place in the real world unless you are LEO or Military...

 

[Terry G]

Not carry enough rounds? The Glock 21 holds 13 plus 1, the CZ 97b 10 plus 1.

 

[TTv2]

As others have said, capacity is the big issue with .45, it's always going to be the lowest capacity of all the major calibers and on top of that the size of the pistols is bigger too and if the hollow point you're using fails to expand you've got a recipe for serious and deadly overpenetration. Yeah, you could step down to 185gr, but if I wanted something around 180gr going 1000 fps, I'd use .40 and get more rounds in the mag. Oh yeah, .40 is just SO snappy... 185 .45 has some snap to it, so you're not avoiding it with that load.

Another issue that many don't seem to want to admit is that .45 ACP is going up in price more than 9 and .40 are, my check just now on ammoseek shows the cheapest .45 going for 33 cents/rd, .40 is about 27 and 9 is around 17. Fellas, that's 25% more than .40 and almost double that of 9mm. Unless you're reloading you're paying a lot more to shoot .45 and that means quite a few of those who are shooting .45 are shooting less to compensate for the increased cost.

I don't see .45 ACP as a great conceal carry option for these reasons, unless you're in ban state and want more than 9mm, which if you do and you like Glocks, .45 GAP is worth looking at.

There are advantages to .45 over other calibers, specifically with suppressors due to the subsonic velocity and against hard barriers the penetration for .45 is not good, so it's a good home defense choice. I can see .45 being a good nightstand gun, but other than that for defense outside the home, no.

 

[FL-NC]

With the exception of a grizzly bear, I can't think of anything in the US that may attack me that a 45 ACP can't handle, unless someone leaves the gate open at a zoo or something.