Agree or Disagree?

[jwalker497]

A few years ago, before I really had a basic understanding of handgun loads, I had the misconception that 45acp was Big & Slow and that the other calbers 40/9mm were Small & Fast, and thus each had their respective advantages and disadvantages, and one was forced to make a decision /trade-off no matter which caliber you went with.

However, I've done a reading and looking at numbers, and I know numbers don't tell it all, but since it's all I got - it'll have to do, and what I have found is ....Yes, the 45 can be big/slow with the 200/230loads but it also can be just as small/fast as the 40 with similiar loads in 180 & 165, correct???

For reference this was one of the sites I found to compare similar loads http://www.handgunsmag.com/ballistics/ballistic-tables/

The 45 is only big/slow when loaded with the bigger bullets. When you down-load it, it just as fast as the 40s, nto too mention bigger! In addition you have that ability to go for the bigger bullets if you wanted. Seems like there really is no trade-off, right? Is there something that I am not getting? Does the 40 or 9 have anything over the 45? I just don't see it, if there is please explain.

Furthermore, I even looked at some 10mm loads vs 45 loads in similar oads/manufacturers and I was shocked that they too are neck and neck in performance. Of course, the real hot 10mm loads I wasn't able to compare because I could not find similar load for the 45.

I think I am starting to understand why the 45 is soo popular. Low pressure with lots of flexibility to up/down load based on need. Thoughts???

 

[Bullet]

Don't know if this helps -

 

[Hungry Seagull]

I fire a 230 grain .45 It is very slow against some of the lighter and faster bullets in other calibers or even lighter faster 45's

But when my bullet arrives, it's going to be very much energy against the target.

Back in ancient history there was about a decade of shoving and elbow jabbing when the 1911 was replaced by the M9 (Is that the correct designation?) 9mm handgun.

There were those who thought big and slow was always good and those who thought hot and fast was good.

I say both are good. But you are getting into penetration issues and what happens once the round arrives at the target or enters a human body that what is going to matter most.

I have fired walmart .22's in a revolver years ago and thought.. ok, it's not too shabby against a tree. But it's a bit... puny. eh, a lite weight, um... cheapie... ya know... something that only goes bang and makes bad guy's attention focus on you and be mad-mad on the little owie that you poked into him.

So I follow the 230 grain 45's and when they get fired leaving my gun they are going to get to wherever they need to go and get the job done.

Heck, my own spouse fired the gun also and shot better than I did. In fact, I think it was better for her (More fun too...) firing a monster semi 45 than wrestling with the mossy.

Would I ever see her get one for herself? Probably not.

There are certain things that the United States Marine Corps gave to my wife LONG before I came into her life. Those things hold up very well when it's shoot time.

I am kind of glad I didnt buy that .40 on impulse or the five seven. Both looked effective, but thier loads fired are hotter and faster than I would like to deal with on recoil. It's just me.

They teach me, .45 ACP's aint broke leave it alone! Stay with it.

For everyone who feels the way I do, there are going to be a equal amount of those who favor the high speed 9mm or 10mm or whatever.

I say it's all good and fair. A good handgun that is effective is wonderful for ALL no matter what caliber.

I have been told that patients shot with calibers other than .45 tend to be patched and sent home while those with .45 wounds die and are sent to morque.

Im satisfied.

 

[Shadow 7D]

nifty, like my .40 XD tac, 12+1 and I can shoot it well

 

[Bullet]

The 45 is only big/slow when loaded with the bigger bullets. When you down-load it, it just as fast as the 40s, nto too mention bigger! In addition you have that ability to go for the bigger bullets if you wanted. Seems like there really is no trade-off, right? Is there something that I am not getting? Does the 40 or 9 have anything over the 45? I just don't see it, if there is please explain.

Generally what the 40 or 9 have over the 45 is mag capacity.
As always shot placement is better than caliber. Shoot the one you shoot best.

 

[msiley]

I like all three calibers. My favorite being the .40 S&W.

For a few reasons...
1. It's a .40 caliber bullet and can expand to nice large diameter.
2. You can get it from 135 to 200 grains.
3. Average loads hit somewhere around 430-450 ft-lbs of force which
is above the 9mm's and .45 ACP's average load.
4. It's cheaper then .45 ACP.
5. It's easier to find pistols with 10 rounds in .40 then 10 rounds in .45.
It's obviously possible but they are usually pretty big hand cannons and
comparatively their are relatively few.
6. It has a good reputation for effectiveness.

 

[Regular Joe]

Search and research. Yes, shot placement is EVERYTHING. One is far better off to study anatomy than to pore over the differences between 9mm, .40; and .45. OK. In a real gunfight, as the stats prove out, there will be very few shots fired at a very close distance, and you're going to be doing your utmost to hit the bad guy anywhere you can.
I'm a 9mm Glock handload guy, but I've been doing this for a very long time. For someone who is new to the game, or doesn't want to search and research, I concede that a reliable .45 with Gold Dots or comparable is the best expedient.

 

[Hungry Seagull]

I concede that a Glock properly used by the shooter with the correct ammunition, will stop the attack just as effectively as the 45.

There isnt it nice to agree?

 

[Mr.510]

jwalker497: I agree with you 100%. When loaded appropriately for the task at hand, a 45ACP can do just about anything any handgun can do, and do it very well. While you're looking at 45 ballistics take a look at 45 Super. It is dimensionally identical to 45ACP and many full size guns can shoot it safely with nothing more than a spring change. The most popular loading seems to be a 185 grain bullet going 1300fps with 694 ft.lbs of energy. That's 41 Magnum territory! I think the only reason it has not become more mainstream is that Ace Custom 45s owns the rights to the name so there is no ammo from a major manufacturer. Maybe Federal or Remington needs to come out with a 45 Mondo or something.... you guys listening???

 

[C-grunt]

Jwalker.... My only argument against yours is that even though a 185 grain .45 ACP might be as fast as a .40 or 9mm, the smaller rounds usually have a better sectional density than the 185grn .45. Therefor the light weight .45 probably wont penetrate as much.

I prefer my handgun rounds in their respective heavy flavors. 230 grn .45, 180 grn .40 and 147 grn 9mm. I like penetration and usually the heavier rounds will do this better.

 

[GLOOB]

Of course .45 ACP is a better defensive round than .40 SW. But what is that saying? It's also better than 9mm.

The real area of debate is between 9mm and .40, because they share nearly all the same platforms.

 

[Just One Shot]

Not another caliber war thread!
:banghead:

Shot placement is critical regardless of the caliber!
















There, now I've done my part to stir the pot.

 

[GoodKat]

Of course .45 ACP is a better defensive round than .40 SW.

Every study has shown the two to be almost identical. I use both, depending entirely on the application, though I must say the snappy recoil of the .40 makes me prefer to shoot it in full size handguns, where I find the .45 to be more of a "push", and thus more tolerable in compacts.

 

[Hungry Seagull]

My speer lawman 230 grain FMJ smoke alot and fire pretty good without error. I think these were the ashtrays but not sure.

However the Speer Gold Dot 230 grain Hollow Point leaves the gun much snappier and is on the way in a hurry compared to the FMJ. Yes the weights are the same and the velocity slightly faster and there is expansion inside the target.

The Gold Dots are worth it when life is on the line. I can do the same with the FMJ's but.... these do better on the range.

Once the spouse uses up all her FMJ's Im breaking her into the gold dots as well.

 

[hillbillydelux]

Ok. My logic on this is you can get roughly the same muzzle energy out of all 3 of these calibers. However for the 9mm to be on par with the 45 it MUST expand. And we all know not all bullets expand all the time. The 45 really doesnt have to expand to create a large wound channel so either way the 45 offers a better chance of stopping the BG. I say why chance it. Use the one that doesnt have to rely on expansion. Also as far as shot placement goes. If I am fighting for my life Im not really sure how good my shot placement is going to be reguardless of how well I can shoot and how much I practice at a range when targets arent shooting back at me. So I want the biggest hole I can get in the BG reguardless of where I hit him.

 

[Hungry Seagull]

Anyone who is being shot at and being hit with a bullet from a weapon is not going to be in a position to criticize or applaud the performance of said bullet.

Now if that big, mean and now very angry sob gets back up off my floor.... time to run away.

 

[Shadow 7D]

I thinks this comes down to get what you like to shoot, and shoot well, then practice to learn to shoot it better, hell a .25 bryco can kill you, if you hit in the eye or something.

 

[KBintheSLC]

Of course .45 ACP is a better defensive round than .40 SW. But what is that saying? It's also better than 9mm.

Painfully subjective... "better" has many definitions.

...

 

[Snarlingiron]

Round count. I consider it to be important. Many others don't.

Turn it around. Per your own post, the difference between the 9mm and 45 ACP is negligible. Given that wouldn't you want more rounds? I do. Neither round count or bullet size or speed will be of any count if you don't hit what you are trying to hit, so, while that trumps all, it really isn't the discussion.

Use what you like. Carry a sling shot, some smooth river stones and pretend you are David if that is what makes you feel safe.

The 9mm has been around about as long as the .45 ACP, and has just as venerable a history. I wouldn't want to live off the difference between how many have fallen to a .45 ACP and a 9mm.

 

[DRYHUMOR]

Shot placement is key.

That said, every caliber and capacity has it's place. There are nightstand, truck, car, and carry guns.

It would be wise to pick the most suitable for the possible situation. A truck or car gun would be used most likely in close quarters, maybe 15 feet at most. High or low capacity? Flip a coin, personal preference.

Figure a nightstand gun, worse case scenario. It's dark, someone's in the house, maybe more than one. High capacity rules the night.

Carry. Well, depends on where you may be. A Sig SCT with the 4 mags full and one in the bbl = 69 rounds. Lotta weight.

.45 same mags, same setup =33 rounds. A little bit lighter.

In reality I think all the OP's calibers would do the job. But how about a BG jacked up on something. I'd rather have more capacity than larger caliber.

Maybe that's why I have 1800 more rounds of 9mm ammo than either .40 or .45.

 

[ArmedBear]

"Fast" isn't fast. "Slow" isn't slow. Pistol velocities are all in the same ballpark.

"Fast" is 2500 fps and up. "Fast" is what makes a 150 grain bullet drop a mule deer, not what makes a 9mm look better in marketing lit.

A .45 is wasted if you load it with a .40-size bullet. The .40 will work better with a faster, mid-range bullet. The .45's real strength lies in that it can lug a big slug.

Those who think that a good 9mm is equivalent to a good .45 are dreaming. That extra bullet size and weight matters in the real world (ballistic gelatin is not the best representation of what a real bullet will do, unless you're being attacked by the Sta-Puff Marshmallow Man).

What DOESN'T matter so much, unless you're shooting through a car door or something, is 200 fps. Energy overstates the importance of slight velocity differences, and understates the importance of doubling the size of the bullet, just because of the way the formula works.

I've put a heavy, slow .45 slug straight through a buffalo, side to side, at energy levels that your standard hunting formulas would say are marginal for a big deer. The formulas are wrong, and my dinner table for a year and a half doesn't lie.

The idea that a 115 grain bullet with 400 ft-lbs. of energy is equivalent to a 230 grain bullet with 400 ft-lbs. of energy is pure marketing BS.

Does that mean I want a slow bullet? No. I'll take heavy, fast, and well-designed. But if I have to choose, I'll take heavy if I can. And if the 14 rounds in my .45 aren't enough, I really doubt that 17 or 19 would be.

Would I use a .38 or 9mm for self-defense? Sure. They fit in smaller packages for carrying, and that's important. If I'm out and about, a .38 in my pocket beats a .30-06 at home.

But if the size and weight of the gun don't matter, I'll take a big bullet with a full-power load.

 

[GoodKat]

The idea that a 115 grain bullet with 400 ft-lbs. of energy is equivalent to a 230 grain bullet with 400 ft-lbs. of energy is pure marketing BS.

It's likely that penetration is mainly dependent on momentum(mass*velocity) and temporary cavitation is dependent on energy(mass*velocity*velocity).

 

[hillbillydelux]

ArmedBear. I think you contradict yourself sir. Also when talking about pistol velocities I think 200 fps is quite alot. Case in point the difference in power between 9mm and 357mag.

 

[ArmedBear]

First off, real .357 shoots much heavier bullets and a LOT faster than 9mm. Weak .357 isn't much different from hot 9mm.

Second, my point is not that an identical bullet doesn't gain anything from 200 fps. See my post. That was not what I was writing about, at all.

My point is that 200 fps (or 300) doesn't turn a 115 grain .35" bullet into a 230 grain .45" bullet, even if the marketing lit makes it look like it does.

It's likely that penetration is mainly dependent on momentum(mass*velocity) and temporary cavitation is dependent on energy(mass*velocity*velocity).

One problem with relying on energy alone is that it drops quickly and easily. You simply won't have all that much energy left after you hit a denim jacket or a bone, unless you have that momentum. Violent attackers aren't made of gelatin. Light bullets don't have momentum to keep that energy up when they hit something.

 

[DrLaw]

Oh, so this thread had a subject....

Hmmm, I was just going to come here and say "Disagree" just to be obstinate.

The Doc is out now.