What a difference powder makes!

[Newtosavage]

Reloading newb here. Many of you have know this for years, if not decades, but I learned first hand this evening what a difference just powder alone can make. The lesson couldn't have been more clear, actually.

I took seven combinatons to the range to test this evening. Conditions were perfect. 60 degrees and clear. Zero wind. I was the only one there. Perfect.

After zeroing my new Sightron scope, I started shooting 3-shot groups of each of the seven loads. Rifle is a stock Savage Model 10 with the Accutrigger, but not the Accustock.

Bullets were Nosler BT 125 and 150's and Hornady SST 150's, powders were Hodgdon H4895 and Winchester W748.

Everything was loaded with my Lee (whack-a-mole) Loader and only the dipper was used. I didn't weigh anything because I wanted to see what kind of accuracy I could get with just the dipper alone.

Load 1 - W748 @ 44.5 gr / 150 SST / Win LR primer / FC case @ 72.5 mm COAL. Result - 0.80"

Load 2 - H4895 @ 40 gr / 150 Nos BT / Win LR primer / FC case @ 72.5mm COAL. Result - 1.37"

Load 3 - H4895 @ 40 gr / 125 Nos BT / Win LR primer / PPU case @ 71mm COAL. Result - 1.25"

Load 4 - W748 @ 44.5 gr / 125 Nos BT / Win LR primer / PPU case @ 71 mm COAL. Result - 0.80"

Load 5 - W748 @ 44.5 gr / 125 Nos BT / CCI LR primer / PPU case @ 71 mm COAL. Result - 0.46" (clover leaf).

Load 6 - H4895 @ 40 gr/ 150 SST / Win LR primer / Hornady case @ 72.5 COAL. Result - 1.625"

Load 7 - W478 @ 44.5 gr / 150 SST / Win LR primer / RP case @ 72.5mm COAL. Result - 0.625"

I had nearly given up on the 150 SST's until I shot them over the W478

Average group size for the H4895 was approx. 1.4" over 3 groups while the average group size for the W748 was just 0.65" over four groups!

IMO, that's amazing for a stock rifle without weighing the powder charge.

I'm beyond thrilled.

 

[Nature Boy]

That is awesome shooting. What caliber? What's the length and twist on your barrel?

I'm getting my best, most consistent groups in .308 across different rifles with H4895. I have some W748 that I have not tried yet but I've been wanting to.

 

[Newtosavage]

Sorry. .308 and I think the Savage model 10 is a 1:10 twist.

The Nosler load data showed that W478 gave the best groups with their 125 grain BT bullet, and I am a believer now. It sure did!

 

[bluetopper]

Is W478 a new powder?

 

[Newtosavage]

I have no idea. I know I've seen it at Bass Pro and Cabelas when they were out of H4895. Makes me wonder how popular it is. It just got real popular with me.

 

[climbnjump]

Is W478 a new powder?

Yeah, maybe 748? I've occasionally posetransed numbers myself...

 

[Newtosavage]

Damn dyslexia. Grrr.

Yes, W748 is what I meant. Thanks for the catch.


I went back and edited the OP so as not to confuse folks with my posetransed numbers.

 

[mongoose33]

Part of the handloading exercise is isolating variables. Obviously you have found a powder/bullet/OAL combination that works well in your rifle.

Is 4895 a worse powder in this application than 748? Maybe. You only have one weight of powder (40gr) but that was done with a powder dipper which means you may have significant variance in the actual powder charge you're using. Maybe you did or didn't do that with the 748.

When I work up a load w/ a powder, I'll ladder it up, increasing the charge incrementally and looking for the sweet spot.

So--IMO, what you need to do is reproduce those results with a careful weighing of 748. I'm not sure I'd fool with the 4895 because the 748 did so well, but it's quite possible a slightly higher or lower load in 4895 would tighten things up considerably.

Good shooting, BTW.

 

[Hondo 60]

Congrats on hitting what seems like a perfect combo of components.

It can take YEARS for just that right combo to be found.

I see you're fairly new to thr - so, welcome!

 

[kerreckt]

Winchester 748 has been around along time in one form or another. It works well in many calibers including .223, 30-30, .308 + more. Our (me+sons) .308 Savage model 10s' are very accurate right out of the box, as well. Best wishes

 

[Newtosavage]

Thanks folks.

The new Sightron 4-12 AO did help aid the accuracy over my previous Leupy 3-9. Much easier to see exactly where I was holding.

For this run, I purposely wanted to see what kind of accuracy I could achieve without weighing every charge, and just using the dipper. I tried to use good "dipper technique" and plunged the dipper instead of scooping it, allowing the grains of powder to fall in, then I gave every dip a light double tap before loading. Visually, they looked very close but I am sure the weight varied.

I think perhaps one reason the Win powder may have done better was the structure made the dips more consistent. I have a grain scale, and tested my throws across 5 or 6 and got very little variance with the Win 748. Usually every throw was within .1 or .2 grains. The H4895 was much harder to get consistent throws. Across 5 or 6 attempts, I was getting 1 - 1.5 grains (weight) variance. So that could easily account for the spread in the groups.

Sure, I could weigh every charge, and eventually I might. But what I really wanted to see is if by just using the Lee Loader the simplest way possible, could I really get sub-MOA results? The answer is yes, I can, so long as I use the W748. Maybe all ball powders would be more consistent than other types? I dunno. My gut says this is probably the case, when measuring by volume in a hand dipper.

I have a set of Lee dippers arriving today, so I'll try this load again with a little more powder and see what I get. I think the max recommended load is 51.5 grains. I doubt I'll go that high (I don't like recoil any more than the rest of you) but I will probably try one-grain increments from 45 to 49 and see what happens.

This will be my "light" deer load for our little 100-pounders here in Texas. I will use the one 150 grain SST load that shot under an inch (also with the W748) as a starting point for my "medium" deer load, although it's already on the edge of unpleasant when it comes to longer range sessions. The 125's I could shoot all day.

 

[Blue68f100]

The w748 is a very fine ball powder the reason for the consistency using a dipper. It normally meters dead on in most dispenser. I was using it back in the 70's for a BLR in 308.

 

[KB0VSO]

What range ?

I may have missed it but I do not see the range that it was shot.
You should be able to do that @ 200 Yards.

Larry
Northern Minnesota USA

 

[Newtosavage]

LOL. Okay Larry. So you're saying I should be able to shoot sub-quarter-minute accuracy with a stock Model 10 and no Accustock?

Hmm. For that I'm going to need a steadier rest. I was just using an el-cheapo $30 Wal-Mart gun rest.

The range was 100 yards.

 

[KB0VSO]

What range ?

I may have missed it but I do not see the range that it was shot.
You should be able to do that @ 200 Yards.

Larry
Northern Minnesota USA

 

[Robert101]

Your gun rest shooting looks good. There is some good advise in post #8. I don't have a rest but even with one would doubt that you would get the same results at 200 yards. The groups would certainly open up proportionally at that distance. Looks like your gun can produce some good groups.

 

[LeonCarr]

Notice that the tightest group you shot was with the only load where you used the CCI Primer.

I think in this case the primer made the difference, not the powder.

But what a difference it makes . Next try the H4895 with the CCI Primer and see what that does.

Just my .02 and good shooting,
LeonCarr

 

[Newtosavage]

Thanks Leon. Nice catch. I ran out of CCI's and Cabelas only had Winchester and S&B's so I went with the Winchesters.

I think the data is pretty clear that the W748 groups were better, but you're right - the CCI primered loads were better still. I got two 0.80" groups - one with a 125 Nosler BT and one with a 150 Hornady SST and both over W748.

Pretty easy to argue that Load #5 is certainly something I will keep in my record book as a "go to" 125-grain load. If someone had told me a month ago that I could realistically shoot under 1/2" at 100 yards with a $450 gun, I'm not sure I would have believed them.

I think my next experiment will be hand-measured (by weight) rounds off sandbags. Again, my $30 rest is convenient, but not as stable as sandbags, so that may shrink those groups even more. Pretty sure with some hand-weighing and sand, I can get some of those into one big fat hole.

 

[LTH]

Thanks Leon. Nice catch. I ran out of CCI's and Cabelas only had Winchester and S&B's so I went with the Winchesters.

I think the data is pretty clear that the W748 groups were better, but you're right - the CCI primered loads were better still. I got two 0.80" groups - one with a 125 Nosler BT and one with a 150 Hornady SST and both over W748.

Pretty easy to argue that Load #5 is certainly something I will keep in my record book as a "go to" 125-grain load. If someone had told me a month ago that I could realistically shoot under 1/2" at 100 yards with a $450 gun, I'm not sure I would have believed them.

I think my next experiment will be hand-measured (by weight) rounds off sandbags. Again, my $30 rest is convenient, but not as stable as sandbags, so that may shrink those groups even more. Pretty sure with some hand-weighing and sand, I can get some of those into one big fat hole.

Pick your load and shoot it when the temps go down to 30* , I would like to know how it does.
My loads at 70 * were good and when it got cold in the mid 30s , velocity dropped and groups opened up.

 

[Newtosavage]

I have read that W748 suffers from temperature sensitivity. I'll be sure to try that, although finding a 30 deg. day around here isn't all that easy.

 

[LTH]

I have read that W748 suffers from temperature sensitivity. I'll be sure to try that, although finding a 30 deg. day around here isn't all that easy.

You have got it made then !
I'll have to work on mine for the cold temps.

I did take a doe this season with my 3006 load .
At 70 * they were sub moa, at mid 30s they are about 1 3/8 moa.

 

[thump_rrr]

I am also a fan of Savage and own several model 10's that shoot quite well.
Nice groups however you will need to test them out in different weather conditions to see if you are actually in the sweet spot.
When you are in the sweet spot your powder charge can vary quite a fair bit and still maintain its accuracy. Some powders are also more temperature sensitive and what may be an accurate load at 60 degrees may not be at 90 degrees or at 10 degrees.

Do a web search for Dan Newberry's OCW load development system.
It is not a long read and you can learn a lot from it.

 

[Hangingrock]

I realize that most shooters ascertain accuracy with (3) shot groups at the range of 100yds. If you have access to a range with a 200yd or 300yd line after you initial 100yd testing its becomes some what more interesting and especially so when (3) shot groups are replaced with (5) or (10) shot groups.

I realize most people do not foresee more than (3) shots being fired in secession but the additional (2) shots in a (5) shot group are educational.

 

[Newtosavage]

Hangingrock, I completely agree. Fortunately, I have a membership to an excellent club with a 300-yard rifle range that's often vacant. Gives me great opportunity to test and I look forward to shooting groups at 300 since my whole goal of purchasing this rifle was to have a legitimate 300-yard hunting rifle. The 30-30 I've owned since '85 does all I need inside 200 yards, but I wanted to stretch it to 300, so that's where a lot of my practice will be over the next few weeks. I hunt very heavily pressured public lands and that "extra" 100 yards may very well mean the difference between tagging out and tag soup.

Thump, thanks for the tip. I do enjoy the learning process, so I'll be looking that one up!

 

[Newtosavage]

Got a 36-degree morning here today. Going to head to the range and see what that does to the W748 loads.

Hand-trickled some H4895 loads just to see if I can manage the same groups with that powder that I achieved with the 748. We'll see.