What am I missing to be more consistent?

[westernrover]

I'm learning to shoot a rifle and trying to teach my teen boys to do it also. At this point, they're about as good as I am and I'm not sure what we need to improve.

I shoot 10 and get a group of 7 inside an inch and 3 flyers a couple inches away in various directions at 100 yards.

I'm shooting prone with a Harris bipod and a high quality variable scope on 12x.
I'm aware of the correct shooting position and NPOA.
I'm aware of correct breathing.
I have good trigger control with handguns. I can use the set trigger on the rifle, so I don't believe that the problem can be put down to me slapping the trigger.

I believe my ammo is good. I also have the same results with Barnes factory ammo.

The rifle is a CZ 527 6.5G. I believe I can expect ~1 MOA from it. That's all I ask for. I have it in a laminated Boyd's stock. Because this is a machine-inlet stock, I had a gunsmith bed the stock. The barrel is freefloat (paper slides around it). The rifle is cleaned with brush, patches, and gun cleaner every time we fire it (typically 50 rounds) and I use copper solvent every 100 to 150 rounds or so.

I'm trying to get us where we can dependably make a sound shot on deer out to 200 yards. Occasionally being 3 or 4 inches off at 100 isn't confidence inspiring.

One thing I'm not sure of is in what way I should be trying to control the rifle's recoil. With low recoil, plugs and muffs, I don't think we're flinching. Dummy rounds don't reveal it either. But to what degree should I be grabbing the rifle and controlling recoil? I imagine that I just need to do it consistently. With a handgun, I'm doing all to keep the muzzle as close to on-target as I can for the next shot. With the rifle, the more firmly I hold it, the more I impart movement from my body, even my heartbeat. If I should be holding it firmly, in what way? Pushing with my shoulder into the bipod? (I do as much as to keep the butt in the pocket) Pulling the stock down with my forehand? ( I don't do this) Putting pressure between my cheek and trigger-hand palm? (I don't do that)

What else could I be doing wrong?

 

[Bfh_auto]

I pull the butt into my shoulder. I've learned the amount of pressure it takes for me. I've never had good luck with a bipod. A 1/2 MOA rifle on front and rear bags gives me 1 1/4 moa on a bipod. "That is obviously shooter induced."
Your stock may not be floated enough for the bipod to not cause it to touch. Mine clear on a bag. But not with a bipod.
Finally set up for pigeons at 200, 300 and 400 if you can. Hit one at 2, go to 3, if you miss go back to 2, etc.
This helped my wife gain confidence very quickly when I taught her to shoot.
When she shoot her first deer. She said it was way easier than the targets I made her "qualify" on.

 

[ms6852]

I am thinking a couple of things could be going on. First, could be that your sight picture is not the same, so pay particular attention to your cheek weld.

Secondly, does your riflescope have parallax adjustment or an adjustable objective, if not this too could be the problem. Is the scope at the right height for your shooting. One way to find out is to close your eyes, shift your head up and down until you find a position that is comfortable, open your eyes if you have to shift your head up or down slightly to see through the scope than you have the wrong height rings mounted. Also I would recommend that you lower your magnification so as that you don't see the reticle jumping with your heart beat until you become more proficient in your shooting.

Thirdly, your barrel could be getting hot and making contact with your rifle stock creating a pressure point, changing the harmonics of your barrel.

Last could be that you may be jerking the trigger. One way to find out is to practice squeezing the trigger by dry firing it. Get in the prone position and set up like your are at the range, have one of your sons place a dime at the very end of the barrel and then squeeze the trigger. If the dime falls you are jerking the trigger. Practice over and over until the dime never falls.

 

[murf]

dry fire and see how far your crosshair is off your poa (point of aim) at the end of each shot. the crosshair should be at poa at the end of each shot.

luck,

murf

 

[CryptKeeper5]

I always teach my juniors to relax as much as possible. Any tension will affect accuracy. From keeping both eyes open to a relaxed grip on the fore stock, keep muscle tension to a minimum. As with the others, I believe there's no substitute for regular dry fire exercises if going to the range often is not practical. I have my juniors dry fire an entire practice match at least 3 times per week during the season. Everything the same as match conditions from setting up their shooting stool to putting on their shooting coat. Their scores have gone up across the board without any more live fire than before....Not that you need all that but try and replicate as much "real world" as possible. Myself, my neighbor has a seagull sculpture on their dock across our channel about 75 yards. I can sit/stand/prone and see it from inside on my lower level. I use that as my dry fire target!lol! If they only knew how many "rounds" have gone through that thing!lol!

 

[edwardware]

Pulling the stock down with my forehand? ( I don't do this) Putting pressure between my cheek and trigger-hand palm? (I don't do that)

Bipods are bouncy if you aren't controlling recoil very well, so:
- switch to a bag if you can, and in any case
- consistent firm forend control. You should not be playing at free recoil, even just on the forend. Hold it down, learn to do it consistently, and you'll reduce your flyers.

Oh, and read anything by Nathan Foster, like Hold That Forend! or his book on riflecraft.

 

[CryptKeeper5]

I made my own sight in bags using wool socks. I had some older heavy socks so simply lined them with bags and filled with sand. They're a great addition to the bigger purpose built bags I have. I can tuck and set them in smaller spots to get an absolute rock hard rest.

 

[d2wing]

Try putting soft pads under the feet of the bipod. I am not a fan of bipods. There could be other issues.

 

[243winxb]

shooting prone with a Harris bipod

Shoot from a bench with sand bags, front & rear. Recoil pad snug into shoulder, cheek light on stock.

 

[Hugger-4641]

How many shots in a row are you taking? You may be heating up the barrel. I don't know what kind of barrel the CZ has, but I have a Howa 30-06 that will shoot sub MOA for the first 5 shots, then it starts walking off. Cold bore 3 shot groups are 0.75" or less at 100yds. Part of the reason is the button rifling and the thin barrel. If you want consistent accuracy for longer strings you need a cold forged barrel or a bull barrel that will take more shots before heating up.
When I'm testing a load or sighting in a rifle, I usually shoot at least three rifles because I can be impatient or pressed for time. By the time I shoot a 5 shot group thru each rifle, check targets, and make scope adjustments, the first rifle has had some time to cool down.

 

[jmorris]

I shoot 10 and get a group of 7 inside an inch and 3 flyers a couple inches away in various directions at 100 yards….I believe I can expect ~1 MOA from it.

Lots of folks shoot only 5, or even 3, just shoot fewer shots . Actually, I think 10 or more is more representative of what you can expect. One thing I do to know what I can expect from a firearm, not me, is to remove myself from it.

A good rest and remote trigger makes it easy to see if “it” (rifle, sights, ammunition) can put a bullet where it is aimed. Also let’s me know if larger groups are my fault.



Saves time sighting in too.



If I can’t duplicate or better, the results, I need to work on me not the combination.

 

[twarr1]

What @Hugger-4641 said.
Plus, on a string of 10, most shooters will hold the rifle slightly different on the 1st shoot as compared to the 10th. It’s subconscious. Pay special attention to this.

 

[Varminterror]

The bipod is not why you’re flying 3-4” out of the group.

What ammo are you shooting? What does a 10 shot group look like? If you shoot 10 shots at 2 targets, alternating one by one, what do those groups look like? More likely than not, this is an ammo issue.

 

[JFrank]

Bi pods are for myself tough to shoot small or even consistent groups especially if my load is not tuned very well.
Get something solid up front then report back with a couple targets, these fellas will get you fixed up.

 

[Bfh_auto]

The bipod is not why you’re flying 3-4” out of the group.

What ammo are you shooting? What does a 10 shot group look like? If you shoot 10 shots at 2 targets, alternating one by one, what do those groups look like? More likely than not, this is an ammo issue.

But it could be stacking tolerances. Bipod, ammo and shooter.
Are the groups actually being measured? When I switched from 30 cal to 22 my estimation of group size was atrocious.

 

[Varminterror]

But it could be stacking tolerances.

What (dimensional) tolerance is stacking from the bipod?

Machine rests are more rigid, but ridiculously small groups are fired any given day from bipods. There’s nothing about any bipod which inherently would pitch a bullet 3-4” outside of a group at 100 yards. I might shoot .1” groups more often from a machine rest than I do from a bipod, but if nobody else will, I’ll attest that I’ve never had a bipod push a flyer 3-4” out of a group for me.

What you’re describing is poor shooter technique. If a shooter can’t manage a rifle such their shooting from a bipod yields 3-4MOA flyers, it’s not the bipod’s fault. They’d have flyers from any rest, but maybe only 1” on a machine rest, and likely 20” from a field support...

 

[JFrank]

He said 7 inside an inch 3- shots a couple inches out in all directions. The bi pod can add a layer of complexity whereas a steady rest can induce a layer of confidence. -Possible as contributor
Out of tune rifles are inconsistent, pitching rounds any direction indicating a load is out of node or lacking of optimum barrel timing. (Think of an out of balance tire until the weight is place in the correct location) noticeable at most any distance. - IMO Most likely

Poor ignition can cause flyers and inconsistency as well as poor primer seating or over seating and crushing although noticed at increased distances so that's probably not it. - not at 100 yards

Poor action bedding/ action over torque causing inconsistent harmonics. Is this a possibility ?perhaps although why would 70 % of the rounds be inside an inch if this was the case? - Probably not

So what does that leave as likely?

Oh I know ..Barrel heat 10 shot strings.. Thats heavy barrel bench rest stuff that I struggle with keeping all 10 in a group although much greater distance, medium to hunter diameter barrels can get wild when hot. -possibility

Shooter error ? Gotta put that somewhere in here

 

[Varminterror]

Out of tune rifles are inconsistent, pitching rounds any direction indicating a load is out of node or lacking of optimum barrel timing. (Think of an out of balance tire until the weight is place in the correct location) noticeable at most any distance. - IMO Most likely

This.

Mechanical influences are typically not omnidirectional. “Pod hop” or torque (which don’t push 3-4” errors), doesn’t work in all directions.

I’d eliminate loose optic mount or rings, and eliminate a bad scope as possibilities - simply because it’s simple to eliminate. Once that’s confirmed, the only thing I would chase at this point is ammo. Random direction “flyers” with extreme deviation is almost always either poor hold or poor ammo.

If a shooter is holding 1” for 10 rounds from a front rest + rear bag, then shoots 6-7 shots into an inch but 3-4 flyers 3-4” outside of the group when using a bipod + rear bag, it’s nothing to do with the bipod - it’s shooter skill. Bipods aren’t as steady as a machine rest, but they’re a LONG WAYS from wobbly. Pitching 30-40% flyers at 3-4” off target is more like a “I’m shooting from a truck hood with a sweatshirt for a rest” type of instability.

 

[Bfh_auto]

What (dimensional) tolerance is stacking from the bipod?

Machine rests are more rigid, but ridiculously small groups are fired any given day from bipods. There’s nothing about any bipod which inherently would pitch a bullet 3-4” outside of a group at 100 yards. I might shoot .1” groups more often from a machine rest than I do from a bipod, but if nobody else will, I’ll attest that I’ve never had a bipod push a flyer 3-4” out of a group for me.

What you’re describing is poor shooter technique. If a shooter can’t manage a rifle such their shooting from a bipod yields 3-4MOA flyers, it’s not the bipod’s fault. They’d have flyers from any rest, but maybe only 1” on a machine rest, and likely 20” from a field support...

How heavy are the rifles shooting ridiculously small groups? I'm betting they're between 14 and 20 pounds. Someone with good fundamentals can shoot light rifles on a bipod pretty well. Someone who is learning will struggle much more than on bags.
It's not the bipod itself. I agree the load probably isn't in tune. He might have a little parallax error (extremely small at 100 yards). If the barrel channel isn't floated quite enough. Harder pressure can make it touch. This is where poor consistency in shooter form can add to everything creating terrible groups.

If you only have one of the problems. You might get 1 1/2-2" groups.

 

[Varminterror]

It's not the bipod itself.

Yet here are so many folks pointing to the bipod as the problem instead of the shooter or the load...

We don’t get fed when we chase the wrong rabbits.

 

[Bfh_auto]

Yet here are so many folks pointing to the bipod as the problem instead of the shooter or the load...

We don’t get fed when we chase the wrong rabbits.

I worded it incorrectly if I came off as the bipod being the problem. I was trying to punt out the stick to barrel clearance could be too small for a bipod.
I've chased my fair share of wrong rabbits.

 

[ACES&8S]

ms6852 giving some very good advice on parallax of a scope.
Sounds like you are sharing the same rifle, does it FIT the boys as well as it does you
or visa versa?
I have the 527 in 22 hornet, the ammo makes a difference, in precision, but accuracy was
all up to me.
Sandbag it for precision, then sight it in for accuracy. My 527 is good for around 5 shots
before it strings bullets. Before that the impacts overlap at 100 off sandbags.
I never cared for bipods, just my thing, no real reason. However ! back last year we
were sighting in my 50cal Bushmaster & got two & a half inch group at 150 yards.
I took the bipod off, sandbagged it & the group went down to barley over an inch.
I know Bushmaster says not to remove the bipod, but makes it much easier to
shoot and take the recoil.

 

[armedwalleye]

Any idea shot to shot where your fliers occur within the string of 10? If it can be predicted, say late in the string, or very early, could be tension as a result of a cold barrel or a hot barrel. Irregular fliers could be shooter or could be ammo inconsistencies, still within tolerances, but inconsistent enough to affect performance.

 

[kmw1954]

I must be the anomaly as I went from shooting from a Caldwell Rock rest and rear bag to a Harris bipod and rear bag and it actually reduced my group size and made them much more consistent. I have given up carrying the front rest with me to the range.

 

[Varminterror]

I must be the anomaly as I went from shooting from a Caldwell Rock rest and rear bag to a Harris bipod and rear bag and it actually reduced my group size and made them much more consistent. I have given up carrying the front rest with me to the range.

In fairness... not all machine rests are created equal.