What, are iron sights diseased or something?

[mr.trooper]

Thats just not what "modern" hunters are interested in buying, so companies are not interested in producing.

The only decent hunting rifles left out there that commonly come out of the factory with iron sights are the Browning BLR and the Remington 700 BDL.

You would be better served with a Military Surplus rifle if you want a robust manual action repeater with good irons.

Look for something like:
* 1903 Springfield
* 1917 Enfield
* Enfield No.4
* Various Mausers
* Mosin Nagant
* Swiss K31

Many of those rifles still have surplus ammo availible, some for quite cheap. Most of those rifles are cheap to buy in good condition, and ALL of those rifles have cheap good quality brass ammo availible from Privi Partisan. Stock up.

 

[osteodoc08]

One word:

MOSIN

Cheap, can use as an axe, shovel and everything in between. Ammo readily available in spam cans (although cheaper 5 years ago...)

 

[Jlr2267]

Mosin carbine (the chinese T53 can still be had for $100, and they are good shooters generally)

K31 Swiss ~ $300, extremely accurate and well built, but ammo is less available (more expensive) than the Mosin

 

[rondog]

Enfields are good as mentioned, IF you have LOTS of ammo stashed for them. Not likely to find more in your scenario. I'll prefer my Remington M1903A3. It has great sights, is deadly accurate, and will shoot anything stuffed into a .30-06 case.

 

[Kendal Black]

Another option: Keep your present rifle and scope. Add a spare scope. If you like, switch to some kind of Return (nearly) to Zero mounting system. Then you can swap out the scope without absolutely needing to sight in again. (Confirm your zero when you get the chance.)

The disappearance of iron sights from so many of the bolt actions made these days is actually sensible in a way. You need scopes to get all the performance the guns have to offer. So people started thinking that the irons are extraneous--rightly or wrongly.

If you don't find that reasoning particularly persuasive, the folks at Williams make pretty good iron sights for just about anything that shoots: http://www.williamsgunsight.com/

 

[Mk VII]

In the days when scopes were more delicate, and many people had to pack in on a horse or mule to the hunt, rather than driving or flying, they wanted metallic sights as a back-up to avoid spoiling a hunt they might have saved for all year. Now scopes are more robust and we don't want the high scope mounts that keeping the irons usually meant.

 

[Sheepdog1968]

Ones I like that would be worth considering with both irons and a scout scope are Styer scout, ruger Gunsite scout, and a 30-30 lever action.

 

[Baba Louie]

Thank you Sheepdog

...30-30 lever action.

First thing I thought when I read the OP... less the bolt action thing of course. But Archangel did say a BLR... (good choice BTW)

Meat on the table? BTDT a time or two I would guess

Defense of home and hearth? Probably done that a time or two as well I'd suppose.

16", 20", 26" barrel lengths... Marlin, Winchester, Henry (Mossberg now as well I understand), new, old, older... blue, stainless... there is a little versatility in them.

Or even a lever action chambered in .22lr would be able to do both to a degree. (and probably get shot more often by more people truth be told)

 

[jmr40]

should my scope go down for some reason my rifle would be rendered pretty useless in that it has no iron sights.

Put a decent scope on there and you'll be more likely to have the irons go down than the scope. A decent low powered 1-4X or 2-7X scope does everything better, and is more durable. Most factory irons are cheap and less dependable than a decent $200 scope. A GOOD set of irons will cost you more than that.

If you absolutely must have irons buy the rifle you want, then pay a gunsmith to install GOOD irons. You will come out cheaper, have a better rifle and better sights.

 

[TIMC]

"That One Good Gun"

This was my choice but they are a little pricey. Quick detach mount in case the scope goes down, high viz easy to use irons, chambered in .308 What more could you want?

J.P. Sauer model 202 Forest

 

[kimberkid]

Archangel14-
My all time favorite bolt gun that had factory sights was my Steyr 69 ... sold/traded it because I was an idiot.

 

[Murphy4570]

hats just not what "modern" hunters are interested in buying, so companies are not interested in producing.

The only decent hunting rifles left out there that commonly come out of the factory with iron sights are the Browning BLR and the Remington 700 BDL.

You would be better served with a Military Surplus rifle if you want a robust manual action repeater with good irons.

Look for something like:
* 1903 Springfield
* 1917 Enfield
* Enfield No.4
* Various Mausers
* Mosin Nagant
* Swiss K31

Many of those rifles still have surplus ammo availible, some for quite cheap. Most of those rifles are cheap to buy in good condition, and ALL of those rifles have cheap good quality brass ammo availible from Privi Partisan. Stock up.

Bingo!

What the OP wants is not a hunting rifle, but an old 19th or early 20th century combat rifle. None of these have been produced since the late 1940's at best.

Get something that is chambered in a still-popular and ubiquitous cartridge. Getting a rifle does you little good if it is hard to find ammo for it. That precludes the French MAS 36 from being on the list, for example.

 

[itsa pain]

In the days when scopes were more delicate, and many people had to pack in on a horse or mule to the hunt, rather than driving or flying, they wanted metallic sights as a back-up to avoid spoiling a hunt they might have saved for all year. Now scopes are more robust and we don't want the high scope mounts that keeping the irons usually meant.

I would trust the sites on M1-M1A or ruger scout and the XS sites for a marlin to any scope made. I think half the reason most rifles have no irons is gun makers saving money while raising prices. The other half would be some guys think they need a 20x on a .22 to shoot 50 yds.

 

[Speedo66]

I'm so disappointed that I'm thinking about getting a BLR in .308. Any suggestions? :banghead:

You won't be disappointed, get the BLR. It'll shoot jist as well as many bolt actions, better than some. If you have to move, not many as short, light, and handy as it is.

Great gun, especially one that takes easily found .308 ammo.

 

[rondaxe]

Savage Hog Hunter, come in .308, I believe .243 and .338 also. Do a Youtube search on them, pretty cool stuff.

 

[peacemaker45]

One thing Cooper never seems to have taken seriously is the possibility that a person might be both competent, and in possession of a high capacity firearm. As if somehow the densnsity of a large capacity magazine created a gravitational anomaly, which would then suck the brains out of an otherwise competent shooter's head.

He, and by extension, you, may be right that a shooter with a low capacity gun which he knows how to use is superior to the shooter who uses a high capacity gun to mask his deficiencies, however, the skilled shooter with the more capable firearm and the skill to use it is obviously superior to either.

There's a sort of machismo at play here, which also crops up on the revolver vs semi, 1911 vs hi cap, scope vs irons, and bolt vs semi fights. Near as I can tell,it makes people feel tougher to think that they can get the same job done with more limited tools.

Now, if you're still set on an iron sighted bolt gun, there are plenty of good military surplus rifles in this world which were designed to use irons, and which are generally more rugged and better adapted to quick loading than are sporting rifles.

 

[CB900F]

Fella's;

And along that line, doesn't the .30-06 1917 Enfield have a fairly large internal magazine? I don't remember the capacity, but do remember that it's beyond five.

900F

 

[fragout]

What, are iron sights diseased or something?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I'm looking to pick up a new bolt action for service as a "TOGG". That's "That One Good Gun" to those of you in Manhattan. Not to get all "end of the world here", but I do think I need a good, solid rifle that I rely upon to put meat on the table and defend my loved ones with. Just got through reading one of Colonel Cooper's books and am pretty convinced that a man with one good long arm and a few rounds who KNOWS how to use it is way better off than a guy with an AR who doesn't know how to put a bullet on target. Hence, my search for that one good gun. I've been thinking that a bolt action will do.

Now, I thought my TOGG in my safe. But I realized that should my scope go down for some reason my rifle would be rendered pretty useless in that it has no iron sights. Thus, I began my quest for a good bolt gun with iron sights. I am amazed at how few new production bolt guns with iron sights are out there. I'm so disappointed that I'm thinking about getting a BLR in .308. Any suggestions?
==========================================================================

Unless it must be a bolt gun, I don't see anything wrong with a semiautomatic rifle for your "TOGG".

And it doesn't have to be an AR either.

Sticking with iron sights, most produced for today's bolt action/AR should really be looked at as BUIS.....as most are not the best iron sights you can get on a rifle.

FWIW...... I used to be one of them guys who had several different rifles.....and all had a "purpose." (7 combat deployments as an Infantryman changed that however...lol) Most bolt guns/AR's are now sold off in favor of plenty of 308 ammunition.

The rifle I chose is the M14 type.
Springfield Armory Inc, Fulton Armory, or LRB Arms. (I prefer today's LRB or FA over SAI personally)

http://www.fulton-armory.com/M14-Rifles.aspx

The above has plenty variations too choose from.

http://www.lrbarms.com/m14receivers.html

Check out their M25 receiver.

My do all general purpose rifle (GPR) might fit the bill as your "TOGG".
I Also use a Leupold 1-4x20mm in quick release rings atop an ARMS18 mount as of late.

I have killed 100's of hogs so far with mine, and have also hunted other critters successfully.......( coyotes, 3 species of deer, black bear, and elk so far)

If I need it for reasons of security one day, then I know it inside and out, and trust it too be reliable in any weather.....too include the ammunition I use, along with the magazines. I have been in combat more than once, and their is no way in hell I'll ever pick a bolt action rifle for this purpose. ( Other's milage may vary....as they aren't going to combat with me. lol)

Some info below regarding this type of rifle's iron sights.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FIKnTPeZbKQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HNSuh4MdqmY

 

[jungle]

Irons are still used in certain arcane games, mostly those with high contrast targets such as black bulls on white paper.

Anyone today shooting for their money or their life with a rifle is using an optic.

Older rifles from the first or second world war have their own charm, but even then it was well known that an optic gave a critical edge to the shooter expected to perform to a higher standard.

Irons are better than nothing but will not allow a shooter to exploit the capabilities of the rifle over the wide varieties of real world conditions of varied lighting and low contrast targets.

Even a low powered 1-4x optic offers a great advantage in acquisition and targeting over irons over a much broader range of conditions. All of the world's military forces have found this to be true after long study of the problem, and optics have done more to enhance real world practical hits than any other small arms development over the last century. Irons have their place as backup systems but have been viewed as a secondary choice for a long time.

With the exception of the Mosin, which is dirt cheap but still quite clumsy, most of the world war rifles are clumsy, pricey, or chambered for somewhat difficult to obtain ammo. Used modern bolt guns are both cheaper, lighter and more accurate. Many of them are Mauser derived and still quite tough. Many of them are twice as strong as the older bolt rifles.

 

[Cee Zee]

I completely disagree that someone shooting for their life is using an optic. Sure if you're shooting over 300 yards they are extremely useful. But inside of 100 yards they can get in the way. I took the scope off of my 30.06 when I started having bear problems. I wanted something I could aim quickly when I needed it. And a moving bear is a hard target to put a scope on when it's running right at you from 50 yards. Not so with iron sights. You can see the gun, the bear and the distance between you not to mention anything behind the bear you might not want to shoot. If I was going deer hunting I'd put a scope back on that rifle but as a scout rifle it does just fine without a scope. And someone basically turned that Savage 110 into a scout rifle before I bought it. It's still accurate to maybe 400 yards but beyond that it isn't. They also mounted iron sights on it with the rear V sight being located in front of the bolt. They cut the barrel down and re-crowned it too. What can I say, I bought it cheap and it works especially for what I'm using it for. The same rules would apply to humans moving toward you from close range BTW. I know I could put a scout type scope on it or even a red dot but irons work just fine. I grew up shooting with irons so they don't bother me. And it's still a good system for many things.

You might have noticed that I said someone installed iron sights on my 110. They are nice sights too. They're adjustable and mounted solid. I wouldn't want to whack them on concrete or anything but I wouldn't want to do factory sights that way either. It is possible to mount iron sights on a rifle is the point. And an older 110 is a perfect rifle to work with. They're inexpensive, accurate and reliable. I paid $225 for mine with a half decent scope on it. It's not target rifle after the modifications but I've shot my share of cloverleafs at 100 yards with it. It will knock down a white tail and where I live it's rare to get a shot at a deer longer than 100 yards. The brush and the woods are too thick almost everywhere now that the money is gone out of farming. Cattle did make a comeback but people tend to not want you to hunt around where they keep their cattle.

 

[CraigC]

I have to agree with one of the posts above that suggested you simply buy whatever rifle you like regardless of sights and then have irons installed at some extra cost.

Agreed! Find the rifle you want and if it doesn't come with sights, get them installed. It's much easier to add sights to a rifle without them than to change most any other part of its configuration.

Iron sights are fine close in. But when it comes to deer hunting many States have no spike horn rules meaning any buck you shoot must have at least one fork at least 1 inch long. Estimating the length of a fork on a buck's antlers while he's walking through the woods at dusk or pre-dawn at some distance over 50 yards is kind of hard to do by eye sight alone and pretty much requires deer hunters to have a scope on their rifle.

Scopes are for shooting, not spotting. The ever-present safety police should be all over this but seldom even respond. It's never a good idea to be pointing your rifle all over creation spotting game. This is a job for binoculars. It's not a loaded rifle, it weighs less, will not induce fatigue and it's less movement. Better all the way around.

Unless it must be a bolt gun, I don't see anything wrong with a semiautomatic rifle for your "TOGG".

And how much does that M1A weigh/cost compared to your average bolt gun?

There's a sort of machismo at play here, which also crops up on the revolver vs semi, 1911 vs hi cap, scope vs irons, and bolt vs semi fights. Near as I can tell,it makes people feel tougher to think that they can get the same job done with more limited tools.

No, some folks just place greater importance on skill than equipment. Some folks just have different preferences. Personally, if I 'had' to spend as much time with "modern" rifles as I do with more traditional guns, I'd take up golf.


I have to completely disagree with some of the statements made here about the utility of iron sights and that the AR will do everything a good boltgun will do. Good iron sights work all the time, never fog, rarely get damaged or lose zero. Yes, good scopes are very good but anything can fail. AR's are very good rifles, within their range of application. However, while a skilled rifleman can sure defend himself with a boltgun, he'd be in trouble if elk or moose are on the menu and all he had was an AR.

 

[Welding Rod]

However, while a skilled rifleman can sure defend himself with a boltgun, he'd be in trouble if elk or moose are on the menu and all he had was an AR.

A 308 isn't adequate for elk or moose?

 

[Palehorseman]

One word:

MOSIN

Cheap, can use as an axe, shovel and everything in between. Ammo readily available in spam cans (although cheaper 5 years ago...)

http://hstrial-rchambers.homestead.com/early.html#

 

[itsa pain]

Irons are still used in certain arcane games, mostly those with high contrast targets such as black bulls on white paper.

Anyone today shooting for their money or their life with a rifle is using an optic.

Older rifles from the first or second world war have their own charm, but even then it was well known that an optic gave a critical edge to the shooter expected to perform to a higher standard.

Irons are better than nothing but will not allow a shooter to exploit the capabilities of the rifle over the wide varieties of real world conditions of varied lighting and low contrast targets.

Even a low powered 1-4x optic offers a great advantage in acquisition and targeting over irons over a much broader range of conditions. All of the world's military forces have found this to be true after long study of the problem, and optics have done more to enhance real world practical hits than any other small arms development over the last century. Irons have their place as backup systems but have been viewed as a secondary choice for a long time.

With the exception of the Mosin, which is dirt cheap but still quite clumsy, most of the world war rifles are clumsy, pricey, or chambered for somewhat difficult to obtain ammo. Used modern bolt guns are both cheaper, lighter and more accurate. Many of them are Mauser derived and still quite tough. Many of them are twice as strong as the older bolt rifles.

I have read many special forces guys say irons are used for everything under 100 yds. There is no way in the world would if my life depended on it put my trust in a scope I do not care who made it. It adds weight and bulk to an AR which people use because it is light. People think you need a scope on an AR for "long" shots. Well it is still a very marginal round close up never mind far away. Palma match guys shoot 1000 yds with irons using the so called ineffectual at 1000 yds .308

 

[CraigC]

A 308 isn't adequate for elk or moose?

Adequate for elk but in the .308 class your AR's are starting to get heavier than a boltgun. The lighter guns are too middle-heavy. Sorry but the bolt or levergun is still a better rifle for the field. Whatever advantages a semi-auto may have are not applicable and you just end up carrying a rifle that is heavier than it needs to be for no good reason.