What are mosins going for nowadays?

[GunnyUSMC]

I almost got an unadulterated Dragoon, but the guy wanted an obscene price for it. If I remember right he was "trying to get 500 out of it and would just put it back in the safe if he couldn't get that." It was unconverted but it was still counterbored and force matched. Some people...

No photos of the M44, but it's pretty typical of all the M44s you see on the internet. Just a 46 izzy if I remember right, but in really nice shape.

Being that your M44 was made in 1946 there is a slight chance that it's a non refurbished, unissued rifle. I do say slight due to the fact, Ivan refurbished just about everything during the cold war. During refurbishment rifles were broken down and separated by parts. The parts were cleaned, inspected and then refinished The parts were then put into bins and rifles were rebuilt from the refurbished parts.
Depending on when and where the rifles were refurbished, the renumbering of the parts to match the sn# on the barrel will vary. Some parts had their sn# scrubbed very well, some not so good. Some the sn# was just lined out. Some the sn# were not removed.
You have to look very close, but a dead give away that the rifle was refurbed is that the manufacture marks don't match. Izhevsk and Tula are your two most common manufactures and the manufactures mark will very depending on the when they were made.

Now, an unaltered Dragoon. for $500 that's a smoking deal. The lone rifle I posted the pic of is a Finn marked 1898 Izhevsk M91 Dragoon. It has first sires Dragoon barrel bands and an altered first sires Dragoon handguard. There is no SN# on the butt plate, but it is Izhevsk marked. The trigger guard is Tula and the floorplate has been scrubbed. The rifle is valued at $600 to $800
I have three M91 Dragoons in my collection and ten M91 rifles.
If you like the carbines, look for a M91/59. These are M91/30s that were cut down to carbines and have slightly thicker barrels.

 

[grampajack]

It was rough. Unaltered, but basically shot out, and force matched to boot. I do not believe it was safe to fire even. Even the seller admitted he didn't have the balls to fire it.

On the M44 if the parts were scrubbed of the numbers there's no evidence of it. The base plate and mag floor plate show no evidence of tampering, and the barrel looks brand new. I'll get some photos of it.

 

[fpgt72]

I would love to see your unissued condition M44 with all matching numbers that's not force matched.

I would love to see it as well...usually when pushed you get no answer back from these people, or a stock pic of something in a museum.

I have tried it several times....and unless I see it leaning against a TV, or something that can prove it is really in SOMEONES house I take it with a grain of salt.

I would doubt we will ever see this rifle.

 

[grampajack]

I would love to see it as well...usually when pushed you get no answer back from these people, or a stock pic of something in a museum.

I have tried it several times....and unless I see it leaning against a TV, or something that can prove it is really in SOMEONES house I take it with a grain of salt.

I would doubt we will ever see this rifle.

Oh you'll see it alright! Now you guys have got me thinking I've got the holy grail of M44s!

I doubt it's anything special. The guy I bought it from knew his stuff. I wasn't really into the dates and markings, I was more concerned with the bore condition at the time.

 

[grampajack]

And just to prove it's actually my house, here's a picture of my dog on the same sofa:

 

[grampajack]

And the rest of them...

 

[GunnyUSMC]

I would love to see it as well...usually when pushed you get no answer back from these people, or a stock pic of something in a museum.

I have tried it several times....and unless I see it leaning against a TV, or something that can prove it is really in SOMEONES house I take it with a grain of salt.

I would doubt we will ever see this rifle.

I always give the benefit of the dough. There was one guy that had an all matching Mosin with all Izhevsk parts. But once a closer look was taken there were a few small bolt parts that were Tula and some of the Izhevsk marking were from different times of manufacturing. The owner of the rifle was told that it was all original. He just didn't know enough about the rifle. This is common with new collectors or those just wishing to have a nice example of a rifle.
I have a friend in South Dakota that has been collecting surplus guns for a while. He picked up a German K98 at a local auction. He paid over $700 for the rifle that was supposed to be all matching and correct. Later when posting about the rifle it was pointed out by some hardcore Mauser collectors that some of the parts were not correct for the year of production.

Not everyone buys a Mosin for collecting. Most bought them as a cheap shooter. With the cost of ammo going from $75 for 880 rounds to $350, they are not so cheap to shoot any more. Some bought them to make sporters, but with the price of the rifles going up, you are better off buying a used modern rifle and having it re-barreled.

 

[fpgt72]

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And just to prove it's actually my house, here's a picture of my dog on the same sofa:

You have my aunts old dog.

She was fantastic...bulldog beagle and basset hound mix. Toughest dog on the planet....and a bit physco. Great dog to have around a bunch of kids.

You do have a very nice rifle, doubt it is unissued however.

 

[fpgt72]

I always give the benefit of the dough. There was one guy that had an all matching Mosin with all Izhevsk parts. But once a closer look was taken there were a few small bolt parts that were Tula and some of the Izhevsk marking were from different times of manufacturing. The owner of the rifle was told that it was all original. He just didn't know enough about the rifle. This is common with new collectors or those just wishing to have a nice example of a rifle.
I have a friend in South Dakota that has been collecting surplus guns for a while. He picked up a German K98 at a local auction. He paid over $700 for the rifle that was supposed to be all matching and correct. Later when posting about the rifle it was pointed out by some hardcore Mauser collectors that some of the parts were not correct for the year of production.

Not everyone buys a Mosin for collecting. Most bought them as a cheap shooter. With the cost of ammo going from $75 for 880 rounds to $350, they are not so cheap to shoot any more. Some bought them to make sporters, but with the price of the rifles going up, you are better off buying a used modern rifle and having it re-barreled.

I am 180 of that. There are so many pretenders out there. You see it more I think with odd duck rifles. I have a thing for Carcano....I don't know a great deal about them, but enough to be dangerous. I have called a few people out, post up pics, post up your loads, your targets....lets see the key hole....and they seem to fall off the map.

I guess I am a little touchy on the subject....grandpa did not say anything bad about the specific item, just that he had a nice one.....but my phony meter is set so high I might have over stepped a bit.

Oh and carcano is a very serviceable and good rifle....just get the right ammo for it....and to do that you have to load for it.

 

[GunnyUSMC]

And the rest of them...

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I did my last post while you were posting your pics.
First off your rifle is an Izhevsk and appears to have Izhevsk parts. The barrel bands, bayonet, front sight/bayonet base, rear sight and base and the floor plate should also have markings. If you open the floor plate and remove it you should see markings on the parts also.
Bad news is that the stock on your rifle has been sanded and repaired. There is a wood splice repair on the right side of the rear sight. The original shape of the stocks were much thicker in the wrist area. Also, in the late 40s Russia was still using red shellac. You stock appears to have amber shellac which is found on stocks of the M91/59 and used on some refurbs done in the late 50s and early 60s.
All in all I would say that you have a very nice rifle and at current value, worth about $275 to $350. If I remember right 1946 was the last year of production.

 

[grampajack]

You have my aunts old dog.

She was fantastic...bulldog beagle and basset hound mix. Toughest dog on the planet....and a bit physco. Great dog to have around a bunch of kids.

You do have a very nice rifle, doubt it is unissued however.

He's a staffy. Not psycho, but he's a unique personality to be sure. We just love him though.

I don't know if there's any way to prove if it's unissued or not. The bore is absolutely perfect, and there's no appreciable wear on anything. I would have to think it was issued to someone somewhere along the way, but they sure didn't use it much.

 

[grampajack]

I did my last post while you were posting your pics.
First off your rifle is an Izhevsk and appears to have Izhevsk parts. The barrel bands, bayonet, front sight/bayonet base, rear sight and base and the floor plate should also have markings. If you open the floor plate and remove it you should see markings on the parts also.
Bad news is that the stock on your rifle has been sanded and repaired. There is a wood splice repair on the right side of the rear sight. The original shape of the stocks were much thicker in the wrist area. Also, in the late 40s Russia was still using red shellac. You stock appears to have amber shellac which is found on stocks of the M91/59 and used on some refurbs done in the late 50s and early 60s.
All in all I would say that you have a very nice rifle and at current value, worth about $275 to $350. If I remember right 1946 was the last year of production.

The cosmoline stripped off most of the lacquer. There's some left in places up towards the front, but the rear portion is just bare wood. It's kind of a reddish brown I guess. I can guarantee the stock hasn't been sanded, as it's too rough. The wrist is thicker than on my M91/30. I did wonder about the repair next to the sight, and the cutout for the bayo is kind of haphazard. You can't see it in the photos but the buttplate does match and isn't crossed or x'd out, so they must have switched the buttplates if they did replace the stock.

There are some other markings inside the mag, but they're too small to get photos of. I can barely see them. One is definitely the triangle izhevsk mark. Then there's a trapazoid next to a diamond. Then on the bayo lug there's a circle with some mark inside it but I can't make it out. Looks like the same mark that's in front of the izhevsk mark on the outside of the magazine, next to where the screw is.

 

[Panzerschwein]

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And just to prove it's actually my house, here's a picture of my dog on the same sofa:

Does he smoke a pipe, too?

 

[GunnyUSMC]

The cosmoline stripped off most of the lacquer. There's some left in places up towards the front, but the rear portion is just bare wood. It's kind of a reddish brown I guess. I can guarantee the stock hasn't been sanded, as it's too rough. The wrist is thicker than on my M91/30. I did wonder about the repair next to the sight, and the cutout for the bayo is kind of haphazard. You can't see it in the photos but the buttplate does match and isn't crossed or x'd out, so they must have switched the buttplates if they did replace the stock.

There are some other markings inside the mag, but they're too small to get photos of. I can barely see them. One is definitely the triangle izhevsk mark. Then there's a trapazoid next to a diamond. Then on the bayo lug there's a circle with some mark inside it but I can't make it out. Looks like the same mark that's in front of the izhevsk mark on the outside of the magazine, next to where the screw is.

It is most likely that the rifle was issued and was sent in for repair. It may have been re issued and seen light use. The rifle would have been re blued at the time the stock was repaired. I say that the stock was sanded because there is no makes mark on the side of the buttstock or any of the small inspector marks.

 

[Panzerschwein]

Guys what I'm getting at is that counterboring is not bad. So much misinformation about what it is, why they did it. Let me tell you it was done en masse, in batches. Bore condition for each rifle weren't checked. They counterbored them to restore their crowns, regardless of bore condition. Done during the rearsenal process. To say counterbored ones make bad shooters compared to non counterbored ones is nonsense, oft repeated nonsense.

 

[grampajack]

It is most likely that the rifle was issued and was sent in for repair. It may have been re issued and seen light use. The rifle would have been re blued at the time the stock was repaired. I say that the stock was sanded because there is no makes mark on the side of the buttstock or any of the small inspector marks.

That may have been what saved the rifle. Maybe it was issued and the stock was immediately broken before they had a chance to shoot it much, then it just sits in cosmoline for however many years until they restock it and ship it to Century.

If they did just cut down a 91/30 stock for it, though, is that common for them to have switched the buttplates? All the restocked mosins I've ever seen had the buttplates force matched, and this one isn't.

Guys what I'm getting at is that counterboring is not bad. So much misinformation about what it is, why they did it. Let me tell you it was done en masse, in batches. Bore condition for each rifle weren't checked. They counterbored them to restore their crowns, regardless of bore condition. Done during the rearsenal process. To say counterbored ones make bad shooters compared to non counterbored ones is nonsense, oft repeated nonsense.

I've always heard the exact opposite, that they only counterbored the ones that were too far gone. Unless I saw something very convincing to the contrary that's what I'm going to believe, as all your counterbored mosins are very rough, whereas all your non counterbored ones are in good shape. I'm sure there are exceptions to that, but it seems to be pretty standard. And if the bore was opened up, then you can imagine that the throat has to be pretty well eaten up too, and the rifling in between can't be the healthiest either.

Does he smoke a pipe, too?

Only on weekends while he's shooting pool.

 

[smithman 10]

I found this 91/59 at a gun show 10 years or so ago for $100. Didn't really know what it was other than a Russian WWII rifle. Bought a bunch of surplus ammo and have been shooting it off and on ever since.

My buddy and I shoot old military rifles when we can and this one will hit a steel silhouette out at 300 yards. That's with me shooting it with my 70 year old eyes!

Great fun.

But I probably wouldn't buy one at today's prices.

 

[grampajack]

View attachment 237108 I found this 91/56 at a gun show 10 years or so ago for $100. Didn't really know what it was other than a Russian WWII rifle. Bought a bunch of surplus ammo and have been shooting it off and on ever since.

My buddy and I shoot old military rifles when we can and this one will hit a steel silhouette out at 300 yards. That's with me shooting it with my 70 year old eyes!

Great fun.

But I probably wouldn't buy one at today's prices.

Does it have the KGB markings? I don't know if it's true or not, but I've heard that only the KGB used the 91/59s.

 

[paulsj]

Last one I looked at was SAko assembled/modified one in great shape. I didn't last long on shelf with price tag of $350. I didn't think price was bad but I passed on it because I have Winchester model 70.

 

[someguy2800]

I wish I would have bought some of the old surplus mosins, sks's, and various mausers when they were all selling for $100. I also remember passing up a $300 M1 carbine and a table full of $200 AK's about 10 or 12 years ago.

 

[LoonWulf]

I wish I would have bought some of the old surplus mosins, sks's, and various mausers when they were all selling for $100. I also remember passing up a $300 M1 carbine and a table full of $200 AK's about 10 or 12 years ago.

I think the same thing from time to time, but i know me.
If i had a half dozen rifles that id bought for 50-100 bucks, id now have a large pile of parts and a few rifles not worth anything to anyone but me lol.

 

[grampajack]

To be fair, when SKSs were going for a 100 bucks that wasn't exactly chump change back then. I remember when the Chinese ones were going for that, but I don't remember a time when a Russian SKS was going that cheap, unless memory is failing me.

 

[fpgt72]

To be fair, when SKSs were going for a 100 bucks that wasn't exactly chump change back then. I remember when the Chinese ones were going for that, but I don't remember a time when a Russian SKS was going that cheap, unless memory is failing me.

That is the thing people forget.....my uncle bought a Rolex in 1966 for $250....that was a huge amount of money back then.

 

[someguy2800]

Well I am younger so my memory of all these guns being cheap is from 10-15 years ago. It never occurred to me that the supply of $100 mosins or $200 AK's was going to dry up.

 

[GunnyUSMC]

That may have been what saved the rifle. Maybe it was issued and the stock was immediately broken before they had a chance to shoot it much, then it just sits in cosmoline for however many years until they restock it and ship it to Century.

If they did just cut down a 91/30 stock for it, though, is that common for them to have switched the buttplates? All the restocked mosins I've ever seen had the buttplates force matched, and this one isn't.

The only stocks that were cut down to carbine length were for the M91/30s that were made into the M91/59 carbines.
It's easy to spot a M91/59 carbine. They have the longer rear sight as seen on the pic of the rifle Smithman 10 posted.
The stock on your rifle is most likely the original that was reworked or a replacement.

I've always heard the exact opposite, that they only counterbored the ones that were too far gone. Unless I saw something very convincing to the contrary that's what I'm going to believe, as all your counterbored mosins are very rough, whereas all your non counterbored ones are in good shape. I'm sure there are exceptions to that, but it seems to be pretty standard. And if the bore was opened up, then you can imagine that the throat has to be pretty well eaten up too, and the rifling in between can't be the healthiest either.
.

Counterbore Mosins were not done at random or just to correct the crown. When rifles were sent for refurbishment, they were done in large batches. The rifles were disassemble and separate it into parts. The barrels were inspected. Those that just needed to be recrowned were recrowned. A lot of rifles had bores that had damage to the first inch or two from improper cleaning. These are the rifles that were counterbored. It was much easier to counterbore a barrel then to cut it shorter and reinstall a front sight. Plus it kept the rifle at it's proper length.
I have Mosins that are counterbored that have bright shiny bores and shoot great..