What are the benefits of a rifle for HD?

[stogiegila]

While I can definitely understand the beneftis of a shotgun for HD, I don't understand the need or logic for a rifle in a HD situation?

I'm under the impression that in a SD situation, you are better served with a handgun based on size and time it takes to bring it into action, along with carrying convenience. However, in a HD situation, I'm missing something...racking a shotgun is a great deterrent along with the force and spray of buckshot \ birdshot. I'm not understanding the need for a rifle in this type of scenario.

Is it just for people that also hunt or is it a matter of being prepared to turn your home into a fortress and fight at long range?

Can someone provide me with the missing piece that I seem to not understand in this There are a lot of rifle posts, but I just don't see the need or benefit of owning them strictly for HD? I must be missing something crucial? :banghead:

 

[Brad Johnson]

Having a rifle beats having nothing.

However,

I'm in squarely in the camp of handgun or shotgun for HD, with handgun being preferable because it's more storable, usually holds more rounds, and is easily maneuvered in the dark with the least possibility for catching or snagging on something.

racking a shotgun is a great deterrent

Be careful thinking that. There are a lot more cons than pros, tactically speaking.

Brad

 

[MinnMooney]

A short-barreled, manuverable, dependable rifle with lots of firepower (read med.-lg. cap. mag.) is an extremely versitile weapon but in the super-close quarters of your home (maybe 2'-15' an average) a handgun or short shotgun makes a lot of sense!!

racking a shotgun is a great deterrent

You're very correct in saying to be careful of this macho remark. If the BG already sees you or knows that you are there then racking a pumpgun can be great psycologically but if you're trying to surprise a burglar... not good. That's why I have my shotgun loaded to the hilt with 00 buck... incl. in the chamber. P.S. No kids in the house to worry about them getting my gun.

 

[Bobarino]

in my opinion, the main advantages of a rifle are more power (in ft/lbs) hopefully increasing the chances of traumatic damage to the badguy in fewer shots and accuracy. i know there can be issues with overpenetration with a rifle but the chances of missing are reduced. inside a home, i'd rather use something like a HP or SP to hopefully reduce further the chances of overpenetration. i keep a magazine of 64 grain SP's loaded for the Bushy M4 at home for coyotes and HD, but its in the safe and not fast to deploy. i use my sidearm as my primary defense weapon.

Bobby

 

[SaMx]

It depends a great deal on the rifle. A .223 carbine is probably lighter shorter than a shotgun, and has much less recoil. It's also a lot more precise. And with the right ammo choice over penetration issues are minimized. Plus it has a lot more power and can be used more accurately than a pistol.

 

[Biker]

The whole point of a HD weapon is to put major metal on meat in the most expeditious manner possible.

A shotgun will do the job as will a rifle. Both will do so better than a handgun.

Choose the one you shoot best and run what ya brung.

Biker

 

[JKimball]

Here's a really good thread on the subject:

http://thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=297320

Correia and Booner made a good case for using a rifle - particularly .223 semi-auto carbine. The thread is 284 posts long, but is summed up very well by SaMx's post above.

I was interested to learn that when using the right ammo, a bullet from a .223 is less likely to go through walls than a bullet from a handgun round is. And of course the stopping power is way more effective with a .223 than any handgun round. I think the main advantage over a shotgun is greater capacity with a 20 or 30 round magazine.

 

[foghornl]

For SOME people in SOME situations, a rifle makes more sense....

F'rinstance, person lives waaaayyy out in the boonies, may have to fend off bears or other large critters with pointy teeth/claws, etc. Would not want to take on bear with a handgun....Shotgun/Slug, yeah.

Person is of uhmmmm lesser physical presence and/or injury, and cannot withstand shotgun recoil. Pistol Calibre Carbine works well here, or maybe even say a .30-30 levergun. Maybe same person does not shoot a handgun well, again due to injury/size/strength, or only has Great-Gramps inherited 2" barrel ultra-cheapy ".22 Shorts only" handgun.

Now in my case, I live "in the 'Burbs", so my first choice is my 1911-A1, followed by the Maverick 88 shotgun. If it gets down to that point, though, I DO have a rifle close by...The US Rifle Cal .30 M1 Popularly Known as "The Garand".

One other consideration, too, is that the Bad Guys are sometimes "Body Armored".

 

[Zeke Menuar]

In order of preference

AR15. Less recoil and more ammo than my HD shotgun. Much fast follow-up shots. Hang a flashlight off of it, shorten the stock an inch and it's good to go.

Shotgun. My HD shotgun had a 18.5" barrel. Easy to use in halls and confined spaces, but kicks pretty hard. My Wife tried it out with my HD buckshot loads and she promptly requisitioned it for herself. She likes the mess it makes.

XD45 or 1911. Only used as a last resort to lay down fire while getting to the AR or shotgun

The shotgun lives in the bedroom on my Wife's side of the bed. The AR lives in the bedroom or in the living room behind the umbrellas next to a centrally located bookcase.

The handgun of the day usually is within reach of me wherever I am in the house. There may be more handguns stashed around the house for easy access when one of us are home.

In my house it's a system of home defense. My Wife and I use our preferred tools to give the BG much more than he can handle.


ZM

 

[TallPine]

One other consideration, too, is that the Bad Guys are sometimes "Body Armored"

I'll say no more ...


An AKopy is also handy on stray dogs, coyotes, bears, etc.

 

[strat81]

you are better served with a handgun based on size

A grown man, with his arms stretched out in typical handgun stance is pretty long. Often comparable to the same man with a carbine, in a traditional rifleman's stance with the stock firmly planted in the shoulder pocket. Not all rifles have 26" barrels.

time it takes to bring it into action

Let's assume the gun is on the table and unloaded. Pick up gun. Insert mag. Rack slide or pull charging handle. With similar training, the average person could probably do it to either a handgun or rifle in the same amount of time.

along with carrying convenience.

Where are you carrying it? Yes, on a hike through the woods, a holstered pistol is generally lighter and easier to carry than a rifle. In your house? Unless you have experience clearing a home (which the police should do anyway) this seems to be a non-issue. I doubt most of us have the ability to effectively "slice the pie" with a handgun or a rifle.

racking a shotgun is a great deterrent

Watch less television. Ever been near someone using a shotgun? I have. Racking the slide did NOT make me poop my pants, cry, run away, or pass out and I'm not a particularly "tough" guy.

Racking a shotgun is a great way to give away your location to a potential attacker. If you enjoy that, rack the slide on your pistol, spin the cylinder of your revolver, work the bolt of your Rem 700, or pull the charging handle on your autoloader. All of them make unnecessary noise.

along with the force

Yes, a shotgun can be quite powerful with the right ammo. However, I wouldn't want to be shot with any gun, long or short. If an attacker decides he wants to fight because you have "only" a .45 or "only" a .308 and not a shotgun, the dude is on crack and/or certifiably nuts.

and spray of buckshot \ birdshot.

First, leave the birdshot for birds. It generally does not have enough penetration to stop an attacker quickly. It'll make a nasty mess, however.

As for "spray," spend some time patterning a shotgun with typical HD loads at HD distances. (Or, do a search here on THR.) A shotgun does not have the spread of Aqua Net aerosol.

Is it just for people that also hunt

Possibly. Some folks can only afford one gun. If it's a rifle, it sure beats harsh words and no gun.

is it a matter of being prepared to turn your home into a fortress and fight at long range?

Hmmm. I suppose that is a consideration if:
A) The Red Army has landed ala "Red Dawn"
B) Zombies/The Infected have taken over ala "28 Days Later"
C) I've been very bad and the ATF is outside to lock me up ala "Branch Davidians/Waco"
Watch less television.

The most realistic situation would be riots as seen in LA. If you are shooting people 100 yards away, those are some SERIOUS riots. Most folks would agree that 100 yards is not "HD" distance. For perspective, go to the high school football field and stand in the end zone. Bring a friend and have them stand in the other. How much of a threat are they? Give them a bat, a knife. Still a threat? Give them a handgun (ok, don't do this for real on school grounds). Still a threat, while you are inside your house with the benefit of possible concealment?


And even though you didn't mention it, handgun rounds, slugs, and buckshot have GREAT penetration through walls.

 

[Brad Johnson]

A grown man, with his arms stretched out in typical handgun stance is pretty long. Often comparable to the same man with a carbine, in a traditional rifleman's stance with the stock firmly planted in the shoulder pocket. Not all rifles have 26" barrels.

Yeah, but you can pull your arms in. It's a little tougher to fold up that carbine.

Brad

 

[TexasRifleman]

A grown man, with his arms stretched out in typical handgun stance is pretty long.

Yeah, but you can pull your arms in. It's a little tougher to fold up that carbine.

If you get to the point inside your home where your attacker is that close, you're dead anyway and you've made MASSIVE mistakes up to there, the weapon type no longer matters.

 

[buzz_knox]

Yeah, but you can pull your arms in. It's a little tougher to fold up that carbine.

You can suck your pistol back in to your chest into a retention position, but that's the only advantage over a carbine. If you haven't trained to do so, that advantage can become a disadvantage as accurate unaimed fire from that position (as well as reducing the risk of malfunctions or self-injury) without training can be . . . problematic.

 

[strat81]

Yeah, but you can pull your arms in. It's a little tougher to fold up that carbine.

Pffft! It's not my fault you didn't buy an AKM underfolder!

You do make a good point. However, I'd wager the average untrained homeowner doesn't have the skill to pull their arms in properly. At least not without getting smacked in the face with the slide of his auto pistol!

Of course, these are software issues. Software, not hardware.

 

[Bazooka Joe71]

Here's a really good thread on the subject:

http://thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=297320

Correia and Booner made a good case for using a rifle - particularly .223 semi-auto carbine. The thread is 284 posts long, but is summed up very well by SaMx's post above.

+1

Definitely read this...There is TON of excellent info in there to answer your question.

 

[buzz_knox]

Pffft! It's not my fault you didn't buy an AKM underfolder!

Who needs an underfolder? Run the stock over your shoulder and the weapon laid on its side. That's the way the troops are using their (excessingly long buttstocked) A2s and A4s in clearance/CQB action. If you train (there's that software thing again), you can get good results even using irons, although optics make it far easier.

 

[milo z]

one thing in a carbine's favor - you may get more practice time with it. Every range around me will let me shoot with a .223 (even if only at 25 yards).

I don't know of any that will let me spend much time with a HD shotgun - some trap/skeet ranges but I don't know how appropriate an 18.5" 870 is for that, or whether skill with a longer shotgun transfers to self/home-defense.

 

[Brad Johnson]

If you get to the point inside your home where your attacker is that close, you're dead anyway and you've made MASSIVE mistakes up to there,

So waking up just as the guy is creeping into the bedroom has now become my fault?

You presume that the invader will always be detected in time to implement a pre-planned exit strategy. It's been my observation that bad guys aren't nearly this accomodating in real life.

Yeah, but you can pull your arms in. It's a little tougher to fold up that carbine.

Pffft! It's not my fault you didn't buy an AKM underfolder!

It's not for lack of wanting one, though!

Brad

 

[DavidLee]

Just my two cents.

Rifle bad.
Handgun with laser good.

Mobility is the key in a seconds-only situation, if someone breaks in at night or even catches you out of bed; you're not going to be alert enough, or be able to see what's going on well enough to decide what rifle to pick up, make sure it's loaded and start pretending you're on a SWAT team assignment, best to have an auto loader in 40S&W or better, ready to bang away. My choice is the 90-two Beretta. And unelss robbers today are coming in equipped with body armor, a handgun has more than enough power to make them falls downs.

 

[Gunblade]

I use a 9mm carbine for HD with absolute confidence. I don't live in a big house, but I also don't have any trouble moving around with it (in low-ready position).

You can suck your pistol back in to your chest into a retention position, but that's the only advantage over a carbine. If you haven't trained to do so, that advantage can become a disadvantage as accurate unaimed fire from that position (as well as reducing the risk of malfunctions or self-injury) without training can be . . . problematic.

I saw an episode of Personal Defense TV where if a BG were to get in that close and make a grab for your weapon, with a long gun (muzzle down) you could easily drop to one knee, level the gun, and fire at the legs. Naturally you will need a fast reaction time to do that.

 

[buzz_knox]

And unelss robbers today are coming in equipped with body armor, a handgun has more than enough power to make them falls downs.

People get shot all the time with rifles and carbines, let alone handguns, and don't fall down.

I saw an episode of Personal Defense TV where if a BG were to get in that close and make a grab for your weapon, with a long gun (muzzle down) you could easily drop to one knee, level the gun, and fire at the legs. Naturally you will need a fast reaction time to do that.

You can fire for the legs even without dropping. If you drop the stock a bit or step back, you're pointed at the leg/pelvic region almost naturally. Dropping to a knee or squatting will change the angle so that you are now pointed at the torso or head. That's when life gets interesting for both sides.

 

[TexasRifleman]

So waking up just as the guy is creeping into the bedroom has now become my fault?

You didn't have lights? You didn't have an alarm? You didn't have a dog? You didn't have a locked door that had to be broken open?
You didn't hear all that noise?

Yes, if it gets to that point then you have made mistakes, certainly.

The firearm is the last line of home defense, not the first.

 

[Brad Johnson]

You didn't have lights? You didn't have an alarm? You didn't have a dog? You didn't have a locked door that had to be broken open?
You didn't hear all that noise?

Yes, if it gets to that point then you have made mistakes, certainly.

Again, you presume the BG is going to play by your rules. You might be willing to bet your life on it, but I'm not.

Brad

 

[DavidLee]

Handgun.

Two in the front, then one through the roof. The roof shot was the warning
Intruders shouldn't be allowed a chance to stop and think about what he's doin.. he's already made up his mind, so get on around that corner and knock'em over for good before he, say gets to your kids room.