rainbowbob
Member
Very good, goon.
Liberal types don't declare their political leanings much here because of the predictable bashing they will receive from some of the purely logical, unemotional conservative types.
What can i say to convince my liberal friends guns are good?
- Thread starter ganymede
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Very good, goon.
Liberal types don't declare their political leanings much here because of the predictable bashing they will receive from some of the purely logical, unemotional conservative types.
content
Member
Hello friends and neighbors // Heres a few options
1) Our Founding Fathers gave us the right.
2) Thy rod and Thy staff they comfort me. ( from the 23rd Psalm ) I'm sure if .357 and 12ga. could have been substituted they would have been.( just not an option back then )
3) This... was my grandfather's and he taught me to shoot with this gun. I feel honored to have it.
4) Don't bother trying to convince groups, one on one is hard enough.
5) Take them out plinking with a .22 rifle and make sure targets are big enough to hit easily.
6) Remember to have fun trying, most folks are just afraid of things they don't know or tools they haven't used.
1) Our Founding Fathers gave us the right.
2) Thy rod and Thy staff they comfort me. ( from the 23rd Psalm ) I'm sure if .357 and 12ga. could have been substituted they would have been.( just not an option back then )
3) This... was my grandfather's and he taught me to shoot with this gun. I feel honored to have it.
4) Don't bother trying to convince groups, one on one is hard enough.
5) Take them out plinking with a .22 rifle and make sure targets are big enough to hit easily.
6) Remember to have fun trying, most folks are just afraid of things they don't know or tools they haven't used.
TexasBill
Member
I am truly impressed by this thread. Good material, good ideas and, overall, a good discussion.
One thing you must remember about pro-gun liberals is that we get it from all sides; anti-gun liberals think we're traitors to the liberal cause; pro-gun conservatives think we're either communists or don't exist and anti-gun conservatives think we're Satan's spawn or something. The NRA takes our money but doesn't want to hear from us.
Be careful with some liberals; they are as bad as some conservatives when it comes to their cherished prejudices. If they find out you have a gun, even if you're a cop in some cases, they won't come to your house or allow their children to play with yours.
Other liberals may be amenable to a trip to the range. Based on my experience, one of the most effective guns for this trip is the Walther P22. It's a handgun, the principal bugaboo of the antis, and it's black. But it's small and a lot of fun to shoot. It's not a great target pistol, hunting pistol or the first choice for self-defense: it's just fun to shoot and because of that, it's tough for them to challenge because it doesn't fall under the existing propaganda. Plus it's got that little key lock on the side, a nice safety touch. (You don't need to tell them you have never used it and, in fact, have no idea where the key might be.)
Liberals are not lacking in intelligence nor do they base everything on emotion. That's as deadly an assumption as the one that says all conservatives are social Neanderthals. Liberals certainly are not all socialists or communists. If you want to see what real socialists think, check out the Socialist Party-USA or Democratic Socialists of America. You won't be surprised at what the Socialists think about guns and I think I can pretty well promise that if any of them come to power, you'll find a lot of liberals fighting the good fight alongside the conservatives.
By the way, the analogy with abortion was a good one. Liberals aren't in favor of abortion, per se. They are in favor of the woman's right to choose. Just tell them that when it comes to guns, you're in favor of individual choice without state interference as well.
BTW: Ghoster: That's an interesting strategy but the more likely outcome is they would tell you they would have felt safer if they weren't with someone who drove off and left them.
One thing you must remember about pro-gun liberals is that we get it from all sides; anti-gun liberals think we're traitors to the liberal cause; pro-gun conservatives think we're either communists or don't exist and anti-gun conservatives think we're Satan's spawn or something. The NRA takes our money but doesn't want to hear from us.
Be careful with some liberals; they are as bad as some conservatives when it comes to their cherished prejudices. If they find out you have a gun, even if you're a cop in some cases, they won't come to your house or allow their children to play with yours.
Other liberals may be amenable to a trip to the range. Based on my experience, one of the most effective guns for this trip is the Walther P22. It's a handgun, the principal bugaboo of the antis, and it's black. But it's small and a lot of fun to shoot. It's not a great target pistol, hunting pistol or the first choice for self-defense: it's just fun to shoot and because of that, it's tough for them to challenge because it doesn't fall under the existing propaganda. Plus it's got that little key lock on the side, a nice safety touch. (You don't need to tell them you have never used it and, in fact, have no idea where the key might be.)
Liberals are not lacking in intelligence nor do they base everything on emotion. That's as deadly an assumption as the one that says all conservatives are social Neanderthals. Liberals certainly are not all socialists or communists. If you want to see what real socialists think, check out the Socialist Party-USA or Democratic Socialists of America. You won't be surprised at what the Socialists think about guns and I think I can pretty well promise that if any of them come to power, you'll find a lot of liberals fighting the good fight alongside the conservatives.
By the way, the analogy with abortion was a good one. Liberals aren't in favor of abortion, per se. They are in favor of the woman's right to choose. Just tell them that when it comes to guns, you're in favor of individual choice without state interference as well.
BTW: Ghoster: That's an interesting strategy but the more likely outcome is they would tell you they would have felt safer if they weren't with someone who drove off and left them.
This is what I would say to those against guns...
I would approach this issue as a "woman's right" issue. Generally, criminals usually only attack when they think they have the advantage (ie. physical size advantage, etc.). Handguns allow a 100 pound woman to be on equal footing with a 200 pound attacker.
Handguns are the great equalizer.
I would approach this issue as a "woman's right" issue. Generally, criminals usually only attack when they think they have the advantage (ie. physical size advantage, etc.). Handguns allow a 100 pound woman to be on equal footing with a 200 pound attacker.
Handguns are the great equalizer.
MisterMike
Member
I'm pretty conservative, but the mistake I believe people of any persuasion make is believing that our two parties are really about a consistent ideology. It just isn't so. Each has adopted a mish-mash of positions aimed at building a constituency, and their positions are often antithetical to true liberalism or conservatism, respectively.
Like mindless sheep, we define ourselves as conservatives/Republicans or liberals/Democrats and march to the beat that the parties' power brokers tell us we must.
One of our leading "conservative" Republicans candidates for governor just announced his opposition to concealed carry. No surprise--he hails from a collar county of Chicago. It's all about expediency. Anyone who believes they're the parties really care about ideology is a fool.
Like mindless sheep, we define ourselves as conservatives/Republicans or liberals/Democrats and march to the beat that the parties' power brokers tell us we must.
One of our leading "conservative" Republicans candidates for governor just announced his opposition to concealed carry. No surprise--he hails from a collar county of Chicago. It's all about expediency. Anyone who believes they're the parties really care about ideology is a fool.
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Liberals generally get by on emotion instead of facts or logic. Good luck convincing one that guns are "Good."
As for gun loving Liberals....it's nice that you guys own and love guns but since you keep sending anti gun politicians to our Capital you really aren't much help. Sorry but that's the way that it is.
As for gun loving Liberals....it's nice that you guys own and love guns but since you keep sending anti gun politicians to our Capital you really aren't much help. Sorry but that's the way that it is.
Deanimator
Member
I DO? What, did you follow me into the voting booth?
You're operating off of a script as much as Nancy Pelosi and DICK Daley.
TexasBill
Member
Yup, we sent the 65 new Democrats who told Pelosi the Assault Weapons Ban was a dead issue. Of course, we didn't vote for Republicans like Michael Bloomberg and Arnold Schwarzenegger. Or Mitt Romney when he was governor of Massachusetts. Or Rudy Giuliani. Or are they emotional, too?
Once again, what's wrong with emotion?
Go tell a conservative that you want to raise his taxes and see how "rational" his response is. I bet it's at least a little bit "emotional".
FWIW, I grew up here in a Red state and pretty much always voted Republican or what I thought was conservative on most any issue in every election since I was 18. Lately, as I've began to put some more thought into it, my politics have changed. I just can't bring myself to support conservative candidates or their platforms blindly when there is so much idiocy going around.
Sorry, but I guess at this point, you'd call me a "liberal". FWIW, I'm looking forward to getting home for Thanksgiving so I can do a little shooting.
Why? Because I enjoy it. I mean I don't think there is anything rational about shooting holes in aluminum cans with a 10/22. But it's emotionally satisfying - or as some of us emotional liberals call it "fun".
I realize I may come off a little sarcastic (I am), but Liberal and Conservative are labels that politicians use to keep people like me and you busy arguing with each other so we can't spend as much time holding them accountable. The sooner we all figure that out, the safer our gun rights (and all our other rights) will be.
I have a few talking points that I always make them aware of of and it normally gets them to think in a different way and see my side of things:
1) Laws are for law abiding citizens....no ifs ands or buts about it.
2) Last I checked murder has been illegal since the beginning of time yet that hasn't stopped it from happening.....then refer them back to my first point
3) Outlawing guns will only take guns from the hands of the good guys.....then refer them back to my first point.
4) It's better to have it and never need it than to need it and not have it......this applies to almost anything.
5) Guns don't kill people, people kill people.....refer back to my first point.
6) Most feel that outlawing guns is the best solution to ending gun violence. I remind them that "speeding" and "DWI" are against the law and based upon their logic we should be outlawing cars since cars kill people...then refer them back to my 1st and 5th points.
I also point out to them how many it amazes me how many people don't take responsibility for their own personal safety until someone makes a victim of them. That whole "it'll never happen to me" theory gets proven wrong daily!
These points have converted more people than not when explained to them in a clam maner rather than forcing them to see my point.
1) Laws are for law abiding citizens....no ifs ands or buts about it.
2) Last I checked murder has been illegal since the beginning of time yet that hasn't stopped it from happening.....then refer them back to my first point
3) Outlawing guns will only take guns from the hands of the good guys.....then refer them back to my first point.
4) It's better to have it and never need it than to need it and not have it......this applies to almost anything.
5) Guns don't kill people, people kill people.....refer back to my first point.
6) Most feel that outlawing guns is the best solution to ending gun violence. I remind them that "speeding" and "DWI" are against the law and based upon their logic we should be outlawing cars since cars kill people...then refer them back to my 1st and 5th points.
I also point out to them how many it amazes me how many people don't take responsibility for their own personal safety until someone makes a victim of them. That whole "it'll never happen to me" theory gets proven wrong daily!
These points have converted more people than not when explained to them in a clam maner rather than forcing them to see my point.
Deanimator
Member
I'm not bashful about it at all. But then I never let ANYBODY intimidate me into self-censorship, whether they be fans of Pat Buchanan or Noam Chomsky.
The right to keep and bear arms and the right to effective self-defense are entirely apart from partisan politics and a great many policy issues.
SharpsDressedMan
member
Well, we'd like to think RKBA & self defense are apart from partisan politics, but unfortunately the world doesn't work quite that simply. We have to choose sides, as our political parties use the gun issue to compromise and complicate other bills and issues. The biggest problem that we have is lawmakers seem to think they have to keep making new laws, and that they will "fix" something. Perhaps we should cut there salaries by 75%, and only let them meet one out of four months. That should be all the time they need (we could mandate that they ATTEND every day during those months) to get important and relative business done. If we had them back in their districts for 3 out of 4 months, they might even get a fix on what their constituents want.
TexasBill
Member
That's a bit like what we do in Texas. We don't pay 'em much and we only let them meet for a few months once every two years. Limits the damage they can do.
By the way, Texas is a pretty conservative state; even the Democrats aren't very liberal compared to the coasts. Yet, for all the lip service we get, it's amazing how our conservative politicians drag their feet on true RKBA. Even when the legislature liberalized the law regarding carrying a gun in your car, a lot of the county DA's told the law enforcement agencies in their jurisdiction to continue enforcing the old law and arresting people for doing what was now perfectly legal.
Sadly, it appears it's not just liberals we must persuade. But they're a start...
By the way, Texas is a pretty conservative state; even the Democrats aren't very liberal compared to the coasts. Yet, for all the lip service we get, it's amazing how our conservative politicians drag their feet on true RKBA. Even when the legislature liberalized the law regarding carrying a gun in your car, a lot of the county DA's told the law enforcement agencies in their jurisdiction to continue enforcing the old law and arresting people for doing what was now perfectly legal.
Sadly, it appears it's not just liberals we must persuade. But they're a start...
Eaglecreekbrewer
Member
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Reading this thread shows the exact problem with the two party system. Personally, I see most of this country as middle left or middle right. Both parties contain extreme factions that are far from the center and as far as I am concerned. Both parties rely on us being divided, yet they have equal blame for most of the issues this country faces, but spend the majority of their time pointing fingers at the other side.
The Dems, have everything from reasonable middle folks to the progressives. The Reps, everything from reasonable folks to the religious extremist.The further you get from the middle, the less chance there is to change their minds about anything as they are completely set in their ways and blind to any example that doesn't fall lock step into their mentality. Facts have no meaning to any of them. But, the reality is, both parties are driving toward bigger gov't, and that imo is the real danger.
The majority of this country is middle, and they have no real representation in gov't as far as I am concerned. I for one am very tired of voting for the lesser of two evils. They have us trapped, and until we are willing to step away from it and vote for something different, we get exactly the gov't we deserve.
If your friends are reasonable middle left liberals, most of the examples here will make headway with them. If they are progressives, save your breath.
The Dems, have everything from reasonable middle folks to the progressives. The Reps, everything from reasonable folks to the religious extremist.The further you get from the middle, the less chance there is to change their minds about anything as they are completely set in their ways and blind to any example that doesn't fall lock step into their mentality. Facts have no meaning to any of them. But, the reality is, both parties are driving toward bigger gov't, and that imo is the real danger.
The majority of this country is middle, and they have no real representation in gov't as far as I am concerned. I for one am very tired of voting for the lesser of two evils. They have us trapped, and until we are willing to step away from it and vote for something different, we get exactly the gov't we deserve.
If your friends are reasonable middle left liberals, most of the examples here will make headway with them. If they are progressives, save your breath.
Lou McGopher
Member
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Rhetoric, people. Rhetoric!
You have to be pathetic. That's right, pathetic. Not the first definition, the second.
If you are dealing with someone who holds opinions based on little more than emotion, then appeal to their emotions.
Ask them what they think is the best way for a woman to defend herself from two or more rapists? Make it personal, if you can. If you are a woman, ask how you could best defend yourself. If they are a woman, ask how they could.. or ask how their sister, mother, etc.....
You can't afford to move to a safer neighborhood, but need to protect your children living in the home with you. Ask them what is the most effective way to do that?
Appeal to the emotions of emotional people. Appeal to the logic of rational people.
Well said.
The problem with many people is that they won't stop and force themselves to consider how bad things can get and how fast they can get that way.
It is an ugly, sickening thing to think about so most people avoid it, especially if they're prone to be more on the emotional side.
And no disrespect for anyone, but "our" tag lines like "guns don't kill people, people kill people" are just as well known to the antis as their rediculous arguments are to us.
I'm not saying that it isn't true, but that doesn't matter because its already known as stereotypical argument. Sorry, but that takes a lot of the force out of it.
Owen
Moderator Emeritus
Guns aren't good. Guns are things, and are simply provide a means to extend the will of the bearer. People are good. Good People with guns are still good people.
If they know you have guns, be a good person, and maybe they will notice.
Invite them to go shooting. Don't be an idiot, in real life or on the range.
Don't argue with them, its like teaching a pig to sing.
If they know you have guns, be a good person, and maybe they will notice.
Invite them to go shooting. Don't be an idiot, in real life or on the range.
Don't argue with them, its like teaching a pig to sing.
Deanimator
Member
The problem is that conmen in both parties are more than eager to gull you into giving up your rights because it's better to be shafted by "THEIR" guy.
The current Democrat governor of Ohio is 50,000 times more pro-gun than the previous two anti-gun simpleton Republicans. There is NO advantage to having your guns forcibly taken away by Rudy Giuliani than by Barack Obama... despite what the Giuliani supporters tried to tell me.
I'm an independent. I vote INDIVIDUALS and ISSUES. My foremost issue is gun owner rights.
I tend to think politicians from the two opposing sides use highly emotional issues to keep the common people divided against each other so they can take advantage of them. I am thoroughly disgusted with both parties. I wish we had term limits for congressmen.
As far as the OP's question-You could ask them how safe they would feel if the only ones armed were the Military, Police & criminals.
As far as the OP's question-You could ask them how safe they would feel if the only ones armed were the Military, Police & criminals.
Hawk
Member
TexasBill said:
Which left us with an unaccustomed ally, did it not?
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/04/05/us/05guns.html?_r=1
excerpt said:
Stereotypes - rock solid reliable as always.
TexasBill
Member
Yes, it did. And we got the clarification and, of course, ol' Chuckie had to resign when pornographic and racist e-mails were discovered on his office computer. He claimed it was because of drugs.
What I am curious about is why Mr. Patton didn't get his gun back? He was acquitted, so the gun was no longer needed as evidence and I believe state law requires the return of confiscated items when the defendant is acquitted. He also should have filed a suit for malicious prosecution against Harris County to recover the costs of his defense.
What I am curious about is why Mr. Patton didn't get his gun back? He was acquitted, so the gun was no longer needed as evidence and I believe state law requires the return of confiscated items when the defendant is acquitted. He also should have filed a suit for malicious prosecution against Harris County to recover the costs of his defense.
Evergreen
Member
Can monkey fly? Can liberals love guns?
Sorry, just a joke..
Yes, give them the long story about how guns saved our country and the morals and teachings of the founding fathers, the constitution and the examples of countries were guns have been outlawed and the suffering and oppression those people faced. As if most liberals care about that? Well, I am glad you are a "Liberal"-minded liberal.. I think that was what the word liberal really meant, liberated. Tell them they are not liberals unless they love guns. NO man is liberated if he is forced to be at the mercy of tyrants and be unarmed.
Give me liberty or give me death.
Definately, try to invite them to range.. Generally, unloading a magazine of .45s can drastically change a person's heart about guns. I see it all the time. Many o'gun hatin' liberals have become gun nuts after a day at the range.
Sorry, just a joke..
Yes, give them the long story about how guns saved our country and the morals and teachings of the founding fathers, the constitution and the examples of countries were guns have been outlawed and the suffering and oppression those people faced. As if most liberals care about that? Well, I am glad you are a "Liberal"-minded liberal.. I think that was what the word liberal really meant, liberated. Tell them they are not liberals unless they love guns. NO man is liberated if he is forced to be at the mercy of tyrants and be unarmed.
Give me liberty or give me death.
Definately, try to invite them to range.. Generally, unloading a magazine of .45s can drastically change a person's heart about guns. I see it all the time. Many o'gun hatin' liberals have become gun nuts after a day at the range.
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