what constitutes a "cowboy" load in .45 Colt?

[1KPerDay]

Is there a "typical" velocity Target? Has anyone chrono'ed something like Black Hills cowboy loads? I will be shooting these through a kirst or Taylor's conversion cylinder for Remington new model army. They all say "cowboy velocities" hornady shows some cowboy loads using TB, American Select, HP 38, etc. Should I shoot for 700ish fps?

 

[JohnM]

Aren't they supposed to be the same as the original BP load?

 

[rcmodel]

Not even close.

700-750 with a 250-255 is probably about what you get in factory cowboy loads.

The real .45 Colt BP load was 950+ in a 7 1/2" Colt SAA.

rc

 

[RealGun]

Commercial ammo (your Black Hills) will often list the rated velocity and pressure on the box or the website.

Cowboy ammo is not too specific until you get to SASS approvals. Basically it is meant to be appropriate for Old West period style guns. It will be brass case and lead bullet.

The Black Hills Website shows 725 fps for their 250 gr RNFP in .45 Colt "Cowboy Action" ammo.

Buffalo Bore .45 Colt +P 300 gr JFN is an example of a serious hunting load that is outside of the Cowboy style gun's capabilities.

 

[LiveLife]

I am working up 45 Colt loads for a friend who just bought a Henry Big Boy lever action rifle and came across this thread - http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?p=9004130#post9004130

MAX in cowboy loads is 1000fps. Most factory loads are more like 700-800 fps.

Here's current Alliant load data for Cowboy loads - http://www.alliantpowder.com/reloaders/recipedetail.aspx?gtypeid=5&weight=230&shellid=15&bulletid=15

While current Alliant load data has loads for Bullseye powder I have but it does not list Red Dot which I have plenty of. So I am referencing 2004 Alliant load data for Cowboy Action (page 45 on pdf) and Lyman #49 for my work up.

Current Hodgdon load data has plenty of 45 Colt load data and 1999-2005 Winchester load data lists one Cowboy load for W231.

 

[JohnM]

I know a few guys who really get into that CAS thing, guess I never paid much attention to what sort of loads they used.

 

[rcmodel]

The Cowboy Action game is all about getting the lowest or no recoil that will still get the bullet out of the barrel.

The old original .45 Colt BP load was all about having all the power they could get out of it to kill charging Calvary horses & men.

rc

 

[1KPerDay]

yes so which is the intent of the conversion cylinder recommendations? Cowboy ACTION loads or SAAMI spec , original .45 Colt loads?

 

[rcmodel]

Well, todays SAAMI spec .45 Colt loads are not as powerful as the old time BP full power loads by quite a ways.

I'm thinking if the conversion cylinders won't withstand todays standard pressure 14,000 PSI, they would not withstand anything.

But Cowboy loads are weaker then that.

rc

 

[Crunchy Frog]

Most of the comments I read on the web about cowboy action shooting seems to come from folks who have never shot a cowboy match. I've been SASS matches for about three and a half years.

The SASS rules have a maximum velocity of 1000 fps for a pistol round and 1400 fps for the (pistol caliber) rifles. Most "cowboy" load data is designed to keep you under the pistol ceiling.

In .45 Colt if you load a 255 grain bullet at 950 fps I don't think anyone will accuse you of shooting mouse loads.

A number of my friends who shoot .45 Colt are loading their cartridges with black powder. Plenty of thump (and smoke and flames).

I load .38 Special using a light 105 grain bullet and a moderate powder charge. Is it a "Plus P"? Of course not, but it's pretty much a standard velocity .38.

 

[1KPerDay]

Kay, to be clear, I'm not shooting cowboy action. I just want to know how strong a load I can safely shoot through the conversion cylinder. I don't want mouse fart loads.

 

[1KPerDay]

Also, why is plated lead verboten? By the conversion cylinder mfg?

 

[rcmodel]

Never heard of it.

Do Krist or Taylor say that??

On the other hand, plated or jacketed bullets are against the rules for cowboy action though. Maybe why.

rc

 

[Crunchy Frog]

SASS rules require lead bullets. No jacketed, gaschecked or plated.

A lead bullet will usually fragment or "splat" when it hits the steel targets used in cowboy action. Another type of bullet is more likely to ricochet.

If you are looking for a load that is safe to shoot in a conversion cylinder, I would look to the manufacturer's info. To my knowledge "cowboy load" is not a SAAMI standard.

 

[1KPerDay]

Kirst says:

Kirst Cartridge Konverters™ are rated "For Black Powder or equivalent loads only," which includes the smokeless, light target loads used in Cowboy Action Shooting.
Caution: Ammunition must be loaded with lead bullets and a low-pressure, powder charge not to exceed 1000 feet per second velocity

Taylors/R&D says

Use only cowboy ammunition that does not exceed 850 FPS; never use hot or jacketed ammunition. Cowboy ammunition is produced by most manufacturers.

These cartridge converters are designed to convert your reproduction percussion revolvers to fire Black Powder Cartridge & Cowboy ammunition.

 

[ArchAngelCD]

Kay, to be clear, I'm not shooting cowboy action. I just want to know how strong a load I can safely shoot through the conversion cylinder. I don't want mouse fart loads.

Any published load data will be under the Max pressures set by SAAMI and safe to shoot in your conversion cylinder.

As for Cowboy Action ammo not being to SAAMI specs, I'm a little confused by that statement. We can be sure it's not over pressure but so what if it's a light load. I'm sure it's been tested and it's safe to use or it wouldn't be on the market.

 

[peacemaker45]

Kinda depends on the cowboy. Some guys will load a 152 grain bullet right to 400 fps, for the lightest thing that'll make SASS's power factor. Others like the real thing. With all the Swiss FFFg powder that can be gotten into a case with the help of a 24" drop tube and a compression die, the original 950 fps 255 grainer isn't out of reach.

Most will be somewhere in between.

 

[rajbcpa]

I have a Kirst conversion barrel. The cylinder walls are VERY thin....

 

[1KPerDay]

If it'll handle a full case of BP, it should handle pretty much any moderate load at or below 850 fps, then, shouldn't it? Aren't full BP loads pretty powerful? Or does it burn at a lower pressure or something?

I just want a satisfying .45 caliber thump without blowing myself up. Seems like "normal" .45 Colt loads should be okay, judging by what the mfgs say. Thanks all for the input so far.

 

[Uniquedot]

I just want to know how strong a load I can safely shoot through the conversion cylinder.

I used to have several of these cylinders and have loaded plenty of different bullet styles for them...they are loads of fun. I inquired about safe pressures from R&D and Kirst several years ago when these first came on the scene and I was told to keep pressures around 12000 PSI or to not worry about pressures if using published cowboy action data.

The cylinders are made from modern gun steel, but the blackpowder weapons themselves are made from a softer steel and firing heavier than cowboy loads will stretch the frames of the guns. 8.0 grains of unique is the heaviest loads I used in any of mine and that load exceeds the pressure recommendations. The most powerful loads you will get with these are when using good 'ol blackpowder as you will get more velocity with lower pressures and lots of fun smoke to boot.

 

[murf]

i think you should put this in the blackpowder section. those guys could probably answer this question with one arm tied behind their back.

murf

 

[1KPerDay]

Sure they could... "stuff 'er till it's full and then tech 'er off... if she don't blow up, it's a safe load!"



j/k

 

[Uniquedot]

Sure they could... "stuff 'er till it's full and then tech 'er off... if she don't blow up, it's a safe load!"

Well I can tell you that I not only discussed this with the cylinder makers, but I also talked with the gunmakers and if you are going to use smokeless powders only then you really do need to stay with the cowboy stuff. BTW the little Lee .452-160-rf works really well if you are looking for accuracy, but they do o.k with the standard weight bullets even with the slow round ball twist in these revolvers.

 

[1KPerDay]

Well I can tell you that I not only discussed this with the cylinder makers, but I also talked with the gunmakers and if you are going to use smokeless powders only then you really do need to stay with the cowboy stuff.

What does that actually mean, though? There's not an accepted "standard" for "cowboy stuff." Maybe stay below 12.5K PSI and/or 800ish FPS in .45 Colt? the "under 1000 fps" directive from SASS applies to all calibers, including .38 special. a 250 grain slug at 1000 fps out of a .45 Colt is obviously hot, but if you follow the letter of their rules it's acceptable. That's more than I want and I don't plan on approaching it.

I'm going to stick around 800ish fps max (according to load data) and under 12.5K psi.

 

[dagger dog]

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