What dangerous game is too big for shotgun slugs?

[vba]

I'm not a hunter, I admit that up front. I can only regurgitate what actual hunters have written and the knowledge if the hunter's I know personally. Those in the latter category have told me they would feel adequately armed with a 12 gauge slug gun against large bears. As a stopper gun for a charge, but they would not hunt with it as their primary weapon. Since they don't carry two guns at a time, they all agreed to just carry a rifle big enough to do the job in the first place. Since you are anticipating a self-defense scenario I suppose what they said would be an endorsement. They all suggested an autoloader, with at least a five round capacity.As far as African game goes, one of the men in my cigar club has hunted there extensively and the following information comes from him.

Most African Professional hunters agree that A 12 gauge slug is near ideal to put down a charging leopard. They hunt the cat with a rifle, of course, but they switch to a shotgun (invariably a 12 ga.) with slugs to follow up a wound cat. Some prefer buckshot, some abhor it. A big male leopard weighs 150 pounds. A huge one will go 180.

Lions are three times that size and slugs don't do the job. Dave's PH prefers the biggest elephant rifle he has, with soft point ammo. Has to be a double barrel, no bolt guns. Too slow on the second shot.

Elephant and buffalo are out of the question. Nobody hunts Rhino's anymore, that I know of, but they would be in the same category.

I've got an article at home where Ross Seyfried hunted cape buffalo (one of the five most dangerous animals in the world) with a customized Seville with a 345 grain bullet at 1550 fps in .45 Colt. So I think slugs from a 12 gauge would do the trick as well.

 

[Panzerschwein]

Some of the Brenneke slugs are impressive. The Black Magics especially. I'd think they'd do up to an alpha squatch at least.

 

[JohnBiltz]

I've got an article at home where Ross Seyfried hunted cape buffalo (one of the five most dangerous animals in the world) with a customized Seville with a 345 grain bullet at 1550 fps in .45 Colt. So I think slugs from a 12 gauge would do the trick as well.

Customized ammo to me means he cast a really hard bullet so he could get really good penetration and patiently and carefully placed his shot.

I found this video this morning. .454 hardcast, .454 hollow point and shotgun slug through ballistic gel.

The content speaks for itself.

 

[JohnBiltz]

the remington 12ga 3" magnum saboted copper solid slug moving at close to 2000 fps out of a rifled barreled will go clean thru a large bear at under 100 yards. you can not compare the foster slugs of old to a new saboted solid copper slug. i have a friend who has built a older remington 1100 12ga 3" magnum with a 4x scope for hunting in shogun only zones and it will shoot 3-4" three shot groups if you can stand the recoil. eastbank.

Sounds like the solution to the problem.

 

[kudu]

So now you have a dedicated rifled slug shotgun that will do what you want, but isn't worth a hoot with buck or birdshot. Might as well carry a rifle. I actually have a rifled slug barrel for my 11-87, it will group 3" groups at 100 yards with the Remington copper solids and flat out put a deer down. Up until a few years ago shotgun was the only game in town for deer in Indiana. Now those same copper solids will tumble out of a smooth bore past 20-30 yards. So do you want a do all shotgun, or a rifled slug gun that only shoots saboted slugs. Brennekes will usually work well out of smooth bores, but I have never messed with them too much so I can't comment on the effectiveness of them out of rifled vs smooth bore.

 

[RPZ]

I think a T-Rex might cause me to question my choice of a SXS with Brenneke classic magnums.

I mentioned Brennekes and forgot that they also make special purpose rounds as well. Their 12 gauge 2 3/4" 602 grain SFMBPM is made of extra hard alloy to penetrate barriers. Basically a .700 hard cast 600 grain wadcutter. Unfortunately it is restricted sales only; perhaps that is referring to European sales though. Otherwise I might consider it for anything in the lower 48 as well.

 

[RPZ]

So now you have a dedicated rifled slug shotgun that will do what you want, but isn't worth a hoot with buck or birdshot. Might as well carry a rifle. I actually have a rifled slug barrel for my 11-87, it will group 3" groups at 100 yards with the Remington copper solids and flat out put a deer down. Up until a few years ago shotgun was the only game in town for deer in Indiana. Now those same copper solids will tumble out of a smooth bore past 20-30 yards. So do you want a do all shotgun, or a rifled slug gun that only shoots saboted slugs. Brennekes will usually work well out of smooth bores, but I have never messed with them too much so I can't comment on the effectiveness of them out of rifled vs smooth bore.

Brenneke claim that some of their slugs can be fired from any type of shotgun barrel. Personally though I'd be flinching pulling the trigger on them from a full choke barrel.

It may be a lack of marketing but despite having been around more than a hundred years I rarely come across people that have heard of them. For me they have been the slug of choice for a defensive shotgun for two decades. They have a greatly expanded range of loads these days.

 

[Jason_W]

So now you have a dedicated rifled slug shotgun that will do what you want, but isn't worth a hoot with buck or birdshot. Might as well carry a rifle. I actually have a rifled slug barrel for my 11-87, it will group 3" groups at 100 yards with the Remington copper solids and flat out put a deer down. Up until a few years ago shotgun was the only game in town for deer in Indiana. Now those same copper solids will tumble out of a smooth bore past 20-30 yards. So do you want a do all shotgun, or a rifled slug gun that only shoots saboted slugs. Brennekes will usually work well out of smooth bores, but I have never messed with them too much so I can't comment on the effectiveness of them out of rifled vs smooth bore.

While I understand why the rifled shotgun was developed (as the best possible solution to a problem caused by an arbitrary law) I wish it wasn't so common for shotguns to be compared to rifles and subsequently held to rifle standards (not that your post was making such a comparison, but the description of rifle-like accuracy from a shotgun at the expense of versatility got me thinking). It's almost like there's disdain toward shotguns for being shotguns.

They are very powerful close range firearms that can do almost anything you need them to (again, at close range). When did that start n ot being good enough?

 

[kudu]

It has always been that you have to stretch the envelope on anything, making the simple shotgun bigger, better, stronger, able to leap tall buildings in a single bound. Most shotguns were minute of deer at 50 yards with foster style slugs, buck is not legal for hunting here for deer, so the rifled slug barrel and sabots were developed. I haven't put my slug barrel on for several years as pistol caliber rifles became legal for deer hunting.

I wish it wasn't so common for shotguns to be compared to rifles and subsequently held to rifle standards

I prefer that a shotgun be for shot myself, have probably 30+ that I shoot skeet, trap, sporting clays and hunt with, but understand the value of slugs Not a one of my shotguns is a black tactical man stopper, but I keep a nice 870 Wingmaster with a 26" barrel and #4 buck handy for social situations should they ever occur. Got plenty of AR's if that isn't close enough also. And a pistol is generally handy so I can get to my other guns.

As this thread is getting off the topic of the OP, yes the really dangerous game is too big for a regular shotgun and slugs, but if you are going to pimp it out and make it all it can be, but in the process it is not really a shotgun anymore, it is a custom rifled slug gun that is marginal for dangerous game, but is still capable of killing it but not as efficiently as a good rifle.

As H&H hunters sig line says ''Bell who?? He did what with a .275 Rigby?'' Just because it is capable of killing elephants doesn't me it's smart or that you should.

 

[tark]

"...a charging leopard..." Kitty is hunted with .270's or 7mm's, but most African countries require a .375 H&H as minimum.

I believe I did say in my post that leopards are hunted with a rifle. Nobody hunts leopards with a shotgun, it is only brought forth when the client screws up the original rifle shot and wounds the animal.

But I also figured if you can kill a bear with a slug it would kill a lion.

Dave (my African hunter neighbor ) Has hunted large bears. He has a vast respect for their power and size. He has never been charged by one. He has watched them fight and they are fearsome, but they are also relatively slow. A 900 pound bear can only move so fast. If they aren't too close, you have time for a second shot.

Dave and his PH were charged by a big lion once, who was apparently just in a bad mood that day. The instant he spotted them he came, from about 40 yards away.

Clients don't get to accompany their PHs after wounded game these days, but this was not a wounded animal, and in this situation, everybody shoots! The lion was dispatched successfully before he reached the hunters. Dave said he was shaking like a leaf afterwards. He said that lion scared him more than any bear ever could. The speed of the cat was terrifying. Dave said his PH told him a lion can charge 40 yards in about a third the time an olympic sprinter can. The shoulders and legs of a lion are a mountain of muscle, very tough and strong fast twitch muscle. Google that one, I don't want to go to far into a zoological dissertation.

Suffice it to say shotgun slugs don't seem to work that well on a lion, they come at you too fast and they are very tough to kill when their adrenaline is pumping. (as stated, this info is second hand from someone who has actually hunted these critters.) I am too old and clumsy to be a good hunter.

 

[tark]

post deleted

 

[Kano383]

For an attacking animal, as it has been already posted by some, you need to switch off the CNS, which means a brain shot, or a high spinal column shot (they rarely charge tail-end first, which precludes breaking the lower spine to stop them... ).

Regarding African critters, yes, the gun of choice for a wounded leopard is a shotgun, preferably short barreled and loaded with 00 buckshot. The reason is that a wounded leopard WILL charge, and that will be quick and nasty, but it's not a tough-skinned animal - so a handy and fast gun with a quick second shot is essential.

A lion is much more massive, buckshot won't do. A 12Ga slug in the brain will certainly kill it, but a lion charge is a fast affair, and if you miss the brain you probably won't have enough penetration to do sufficient damage to other organs to incapacitate it.

Elephant, well, if you fancy getting turned into fertilizer, be my guest... With a skull thickness measured in feet in some points, a shotgun is definitely not the right way to approach the problem.

Buffalo, there is a catch. Local poachers actually DO hunt buffalo with shotguns at times. With birdshot... Not possible? Nothing is impossible in Africa . No, what they actually do is to pull the birdshot out of the round, melt it into a slug, close the cartridge again, then use that to shoot buffalo, heartshot on a broadside, very close. If the shooter is good, it often works. When it doesn't work, things get pretty interesting.

On a charging buffalo, there would be all sorts of problems. A buffalo charges with the head high, nose up, and drops it down in the last meters, so you basically have to go through the nose all the way to the brain, or through the boss, or get the spine through the shoulder, deep below heavy muscles. Bone-crunching penetration is your friend. I wouldn't want to try it with a slug. If you don't mind, you do the trying and I'll take the pictures...

Hippo has actually quite a thin skull, and would drop to a properly placed brain shot with a slug. But the rest of the body is massive, with skin that reaches two inches. No good. Rhino is in the same category, with the added advantage (for him...) that the horn protects its forehead if he's facing you.

So, in a nutshell, there are better choices than a 12 gauge with slugs for self-defense against African critters. Unless you would like to leave a permanent impression on your favorite mortician...

 

[eastbank]

i would bet a 385 solid copper slug will go thru a lion stem-stern and as far as hitting the brain that would also pertain to any big game rifle bullet. bird shot out of a rifled barrel will open up very quickly, but small game can be killed very close 15-20 yards. the wardens in alaska carry shotguns most of the time for bear, so they must think it will get the job done. if you think a lion is built big in the front end, look at this eastern 600 lbs black bear shot with a 12ga rem 870 sabot slug, shot left to right at a angle with complete pass thru. the rungs on the latter in the back ground are at least a foot apart. i have hunted in africa five times and know how high the will to live is in the animals there and i had to shoot my cape buffalo three times with a 9.3x62. and i would never recommend a shotgun for any of the dangerous animals there. eastbank.

 

[FL-NC]

I read a book by Capstick (famous safari guide) that he preferred a winchester model 12 with buckshot to track wounded leopards and the like.

 

[shafter]

The Maasai Hunt Lions with a spear. It's a right of passage into manhood.

I would guess more often than not it's a passage into an early grave. But I suppose death and manhood have a different meaning over there.

 

[DanLee]

Jack O'Connor reported that one PH in Africa would track wounded lions with a Browning A5 loaded with the equivalent of our 000 buckshot. When a lion charged, the PH would sit down and pull the trigger as fast as he could. As far as Jack heard, it always worked.

 

[Scooter22]

When you say "shotgun slugs" most think of the standard hollow base rifled slug. Good for deer and black bear at 100yds. But they're are many more high performance slugs that stretch the hunting range to 250 yds or put a big hit on dangerous game You just have to choose the right one. I'd feel safe with a 12ga slug of the right load against anything that walks.

 

[Kano383]

When you say "shotgun slugs" most think of the standard hollow base rifled slug. Good for deer and black bear at 100yds. But they're are many more high performance slugs that stretch the hunting range to 250 yds or put a big hit on dangerous game You just have to choose the right one. I'd feel safe with a 12ga slug of the right load against anything that walks.

Yes, here "slugs" are these 1 oz + lumps of lead, usually with some sort of longitudinal ribs that can squeeze through a choke. No fancy high-tech projectiles...

 

[eastbank]

wasn,t there a shallow rifled shotgun double barrel that used a shell called a paradox in the old days in africa? eastbank.

 

[kBob]

Yes, Paradox guns and similar guns were about. Some had full rifling and others had only rifling near the muzzle. Frequently they were doubles with one barrel smooth and one rifled. Someone almost talked me into a 16 gauge double at one point with the right barrel rifled in the last third of the barrel. Actual Paradox used a big honking bras cartridge case with a big round nosed hollow based bullet in it, more minie ball and less foster slug. The one I was looking at had a neat spring retractable sling that coiled into the butt stock when not hooked to a loop on the barrels. There was a very low folding rear notch sight that seemed to indicate it was a close range gun.

My understanding of the Maasii lion hunts is that they are group affairs involving something of a crowd that encircle a lion and tighten the circle until he makes his move. Not belittling the event. I would not do it. But it seems it is more like fighting in a pike company than an individual against a single lion. As I say still a darned brave thing to take part in and a way to determine who among the youth will stand their ground with the tribe or clan. Almost wish we had something like it for our youth.

If I ever have to deal with a lion I would want it to be as in the Pun/joke that ends "Archie, everyone know the quickest way to two pints is a straffed lion."

I suspect given my current age and physical condition that my best chance of surviving a lion attack might be screaming "Please Mr. Wizard, I don't want to be a lion hunter anymore!" as it would like be just as effective as anything else and I could leave with a bit of humor and the old lizard might be listening.

-kBob

 

[tark]

I think the shotgun slugs available today are worlds ahead of the slugs available twenty or thirty years ago, as pertains to their ability to kill. Sabot slugs have changed the game. They are capable of tremendous penetration and tissue destruction and they are accurate. Probably would work on a lion..

 

[JohnBiltz]

Looks like this thread has run its course. Thanks for contributing, It answered all my questions and I learned a lot from it.

 

[RMc]

Check out the Dixie IXL-DGS 12 gauge 3"

Full bore, 870 grain,heat treated hard cast lead rated at 1200 FPS from a 20 inch barrel.

http://www.dixieslugs.com/products.html

 

[tark]

I've got an article at home where Ross Seyfried hunted cape buffalo (one of the five most dangerous animals in the world) with a customized Seville with a 345 grain bullet at 1550 fps in .45 Colt. So I think slugs from a 12 gauge would do the trick as well.

I'll bet his PH was backing him up with a .470 !!

Hunting is one thing, stopping a charge is another. That pistol would be totally useless in that situation.

 

[RPZ]

I've got an article at home where Ross Seyfried hunted cape buffalo (one of the five most dangerous animals in the world) with a customized Seville with a 345 grain bullet at 1550 fps in .45 Colt. So I think slugs from a 12 gauge would do the trick as well.

Does anyone know what happened to Ross Seyfried? I read his material for many many years, learned from and really enjoyed a great deal of his writings. Then it seemed he suddenly disappeared from the gun writing scene.