What do I need for a 10 ring rimfire rifle?

[benzy2]

Having the Savage FVT, Kimber 82G, and Remington 40X, the Savage will give you good practice, but is nowhere near a competition rifle. It is going to be struggling to hold consistent 10s, especially consistent Xs. There are multiple features of the Kimber that make it a substantially better rifle. First is the quality of the action. When you hold them side by side and cycle them, you know which is a match designed rifle and which is a budget rifle with aperture sights tossed on. The longer sight radius of the Kimber will make shooting it accurately easier. Both front sights are threaded the same. The rear sight on the Kimber is a MUCH higher quality sight than the Williams rear sight on the Savage. The stock on the Kimber is inlet with an accessory rail and comes with a handstop. This will let you sling up, which most is needed. The stock is much more solid than the plastic stock on the Savage.

Now, none of this is to say the Savage is a bad rifle. I thoroughly enjoy mine. That said, it is a fun gun and not something I toss in competition. In fact, I don't think I've shot it since I bought the Kimber and certainly not since I bought the 40x. If you want a rifle to learn position shooting, the position rifles are going to be a better fit than the Savage.

To bring that Savage up to the Kimber spec, ignoring any differences in action/barrel quality, is going to take a new rear sight and a new stock. Target stocks for the Savage with the accessory rail are going to run you about as much as the complete Kimber. Toss in a new sight, and you're over the price of the Kimber by far. Had you got in on the recent order of 40X or 52C/Ds the CMP had come in, you would have been in a phenomenal rifle while still holding the budget.

My honest suggestion is to ask the dealer to cancel the order if possible. If not, I'd jump through the few CMP hoops, buy a "rusty" Kimber, see how it goes. If you think was a bad deal, you will have no problem selling it for $500 on more than a few websites, recouping your money and maybe then a little. At that point, you can keep the Savage and do what you want with it. On the other hand, when you see the difference and shoot the two, especially from position, you may (read will) see why the Kimber is such a better option for these desires, and will want to sell the Savage ASAP (or keep it to play around with at best).

I've done EXACTLY what you are doing. I got the position shooting bug and wanted a rifle to use in it. Bought an FVT first, then found the CMP a bit more, picked up a Kimber and a 40X, and don't touch the FVT today. I've got $400 in the Kimber, $475 in the Remington, and $300 in the FVT. The FVT is a good deal outside of the CMP but with the CMP available, it's a huge step down for very little saved money.

 

[SeekHer]

If you want to shoot real consistency none of the rifles you mentioned are going to do it SeekHer. You're going to want a 40X (or Turbo or Hall) with a Jewell trigger, a Shilen barrel and a McMillen stock which will consistently beat the pants off the rifles you mentioned in BR competitions. Those rifles might be good for shooting off hand though and the ones I mentioned won't be because they will likely weigh at least 15 pounds and have stocks designed for rests and not hands.

So why don't we stick to what the OP asked for. He's trying to learn to shoot again, not win national championships. He wants a rifle to shoot off hand that won't empty the wallet of a working man's wages. For that a Savage up to a Sako is a good range for him IMO. Yes there are certainly better rifles but like you said they come at a price. And if you're limited by what you can spend you're limited on what you can spend unless you start selling crack or robbing banks. I would prefer to stay out of jail and keep my gun rights personally. I do have some rifles that will shoot extremely well but I can't cover all the bases I'd like to cover. Yes it's true. I really ain't Warren Buffett.

Comparing a rimfire BR rifle, which I shoot by the way, to a ISU style rifle is totally unfair...Most of the guns can't even be fired in the offhand or any handheld position even prone due to stock shape.

IIRC the majority of winning BR rifles used an Anschutz Model 54 action on their builds but that also matters by which organization you're shooting under and the class of rifle....Both my wife and I are using Turbo actions with a Lilja barrel with a laminated stock on hers and a Benchmark barrel and synthetic stock on mine for our unlimited class rifles...One of my daughters is using a Suhl action, Lilja barrel and synthetic stock on her heavy gun...Anschutz makes dedicated benchrest rifles Model 64S BR, 1913, 2013 and so does Cooper Arms of Montana and they compete favourably in the light class but the customs jobs will beat them out.

I shoot a Feinwerkbau 2700 ALU in ISU/ISSF all position and their Model 700 ALU in air rifle but the Evolution and Universal and Junior and Basic are all cheaper in price, equally competitive, nearly as accurate (the barrelled action is used in Air BR which we haven't started to shoot yet, thankfully).

Anschutz also has different levels of rimfire rifles--The 1907 and the 1903 are both excellent shooters for a lot less then a 2018...I had a 1907 that was a delight to shoot that I gave to my daughter when I got an old 1913 which I gave to another daughter when I upgraded to the Feinwerkbau...The 1415R is a great rifle that converts from target to sporter and is quite inexpensive.

Sure the guns are expensive but they also have sight sets that range from $450 to $1,000 on them and that is one major factor in the game--adjustability of the sights--clicks per inch (down to 1/64th") and how well they hold them...Stick a good set of target/receiver sights on a regular rifle and you'll improve your accuracy instantly--couple that with a "good" trigger and it gets even better...Just upgrading or tuning the trigger will make the gun shoot better.

But does putting a $450 set of sights and a $250 trigger on a Marlin 60 or an old Mossberg school target gun or any other production line gun made, going to make that into an Olympic or World contender, even being shot by a master rifleman, probably not...But, it sure as Hell will be a significant improvement....The problem still lies in cost and as I said extreme accuracy is extremely expensive to obtain.

If you just want to plink paper for fun then get a trigger job, best investment you'll ever do...Want to shoot X rings like the OP wants then you have to upgrade the open sights and do a trigger job....Going beyond that requires a new barrel and stock. or better yet, a totally different rifle.

The mentioned Volquartsen starts at $1,100 for the Standard and the Inferno pictured starts at $1,850...Any model will shoot rings around a Ruger 10/22 even souped up ones, which cost the same...I have an Anschutz Sporter (Hunting version) Model 1416 .22 LR that stock, right out of the box will out group my Volquartsen Deluxe Model both using the same scope and cost about $400 less...The Weatherby Mark II is just a rebadged Anschutz Sporter.

The Savage Mark II FVT heavy barrel with receiver sights is $425 and the single shot Mark I FVT is $418 and are good entry level guns, like the old Mossbergs that we had at the school's shooting club but with better triggers...If you do your part, they'll keep you in the black consistently--8s, 9s but if you can improve the sight set 10s and Xs are possible.

The best advice is go to a "local" target shooting club and see what rifles they have used or check the Internet but with FFL fees ($50+) and shipping costs ($30+) reduces your savings drastically--YMMV.

For a real hoot, try shooting Schuetzen style rifles with the huge fancy butt stocks and ball hand rest...You can get lots of them at auction for bloody cheap--which is another place to check....Rock Island is having a sale and check out Amoskeag Actions or James D. Julia or Five Rivers or any of the others...Unless there are dedicated rimfire target shooters in the crowd, you can get fantastic prices on old Winchester, Stevens, Ballard etc. single shots...I got hold of a Helm stocked Winchester Lo-Wall with tang sight for $200 that I sold for $1,200 and a Ballard Nbr 6.

Another place is pawn shops and I've gotten some really great deals but you have to know what your wanting and looking at...I got a Winchester 52D with an old Unertl 1½" 6x Target scope for $100 and a Kimber Super America for a quarter of the price new--granted that was a few years ago but the 52D would have been $300 anywhere else and the Kimber's stock was all beat up and some bluing was off so I got it for $400 and they went for MSRP $1,899...The guys didn't know their guns so well!

 

[Hangingrock]

Good equipment helps but what is required is competency which is an acquired skill.

 

[M-Cameron]

Yeah but if you want to compete with even the remotest chance of winning then you'd better save your pennies...If all you want to do is plink paper, then any piece of junk will do.

Also, try going to the different shooting clubs (or sites) and see if someone is selling off their trainer or older rifle--you'll be able to get good deals that way.

Ever price out a full blown 10/22 rebuild? A KIDD trigger is $450 and if your trigger isn't as good --Volquartsen $300--as that then you'll probably lose.

I can get an Anschutz 1416 Sporter for less money that will shoot as good if not better right out of the box whether you use receiver (target) sights or optics.

Shooting Xs consistently is done with quality equipment and quality equipment costs! Live with it.

you are implying a Savage MK2 cannot compete with a high end match rifle.....that is completely wrong.

refer to my link in post #5......i use a mk2 as my primary match gun.......granted, it has had some extensive work done to it........but the grand total is under $1000.......it will hold its own against any .22 on the market.

i was literally in the same situation as the OP, i needed something competitive, but i had almost no money to do it with, so plunking down $1000-3000 in one go was out of the question.

out of the box the gun shoots great, and with work it shoots incredible, and as you acquire disposable income, you can slowly have work done to your gun.

 

[TonyAngel]

refer to my link in post #5......i use a mk2 as my primary match gun.......granted, it has had some extensive work done to it........but the grand total is under $1000.......it will hold its own against any .22 on the market.

Sorry, I can't agree with this because I see how untrue it is every weekend. Besides, if it is true, the cost qualifier kind of defeats the purpose. My shooting buddy used to shoot our match with a 10/22 that's all tricked out. That's 10/22 shot very well, but he just wasn't getting the results that he wanted. After shopping around, he found some model of Anschutz with a 64 action that was already scoped for $900. Now he's shooting around 7100, rather than the 6500s he was shooting before.

 

[M-Cameron]

ruger 10/22 =\= savage mk2

there are limits to the 1022....just because it can't compete...doesn't mean the mk2 can't

I've got targets to back up my claims....with good ammo, my mk2 has no problem holding the x ring at 100

 

[Coal Dragger]

When I see a Savage MK2 take gold at the Olympics or some other elite rimfire shooting event I'll buy into the Savage being a truly equal alternative to a high end match rifle.

Until then it is like trying to turn a compact economy car into a race car to compete at Le Mans with, sure you can make the compact economy car faster and better handling..... but it still will not be a race car that can compete with purpose built race cars.

The Savage is still an economy action with the limitations inherent with that.

 

[TonyAngel]

there are limits to the 1022....just because it can't compete...doesn't mean the mk2 can't

First, I was just giving one example. I didn't say that a 10/22 can't compete. The point I was trying to make was that for the investment amount, you can do better than either a souped up 10/22 or a MK II that been worked on. As you mentioned, your MK II has under $1000 in it. I'll take a wild guess and say that it's just under $1000. I'll bet that an Anchutz that cost just under $1000 and didn't need any work will still shoot better.

As for the 10/22, I've had much better luck with my 10/22 build than any of the guys trying to shoot their "worked on" MK IIs that I've seen at the match.

 

[M-Cameron]

First, I was just giving one example. I didn't say that a 10/22 can't compete. The point I was trying to make was that for the investment amount, you can do better than either a souped up 10/22 or a MK II that been worked on. As you mentioned, your MK II has under $1000 in it. I'll take a wild guess and say that it's just under $1000. I'll bet that an Anchutz that cost just under $1000 and didn't need any work will still shoot better.

shoot better......i doubt it.......shoot juts as well, more than likely

im not saying for $1000 you cant get a great shooter out of the box.......

...but then again, i didnt have to pay $1000 all at once.

with the route i took, i could pay $400 here.......$100 there.......$250 there....all over the course of several months.


now could i have simply have saved for several months and bought a high end gun....sure.

but thats several months im spending not shooting. aside from waiting for the work to be done, i can shoot between upgrades........now that may not be a big deal for some people, but in my case it was a huge factor.

and now i ended up with a fantastic shooter, for WELL under the cost of what i would have paid for a high end match gun.....and its is completely built to suit me.

 

[aka108]

I don't even dream of a constant 10 rifle. A guy I once shot with had several. He said all you needed was about 16K for the rifle and scope (all custom), a couple of K for the rest (also custom, not off the shelf stuff), the right lot of Eley and the ability to read your wind flags. And a 2.5K spotting scope is a nice accessory to have. These BR guys go to all ends to get 1/64" more accuracy. Even if I had the money the exacting detail would drive me straight up and over the wall.

 

[wanderinwalker]

OP, if you want a position rifle, the votes for Anschutz, or a Kimber 82G through CMP are spot on. Wanting a good set of apertures as a primary sight set makes me believe this is the direction you are going. I'm also going to assume you mean a standard NRA A-23 smallbore target and not benchrest.

I'm in a similar position, where I got hooked on shooting indoor smallbore last winter as a means of keeping my skills sharp for Highpower this summer. (Side note: it really helped my prone scores a lot, but I think it's caused me to overthink offhand and sitting.) Right now I'm borrowing an old Winchester 52, a pre-A model, with a set of Redfield sights. Luckily this rifle has a rail inletted in the forend, which is a huge benefit to position shooting. I still haven't found what I'm looking for on a rifle of my own, because I've realized to shoot competitively I'm probably going to need an Anschutz 54 or similar rifle.

And you can't overlook rimfire ammo in the equation either. You're going to want at least Wolf Match Target-level ammunition to minimize fliers.

 

[benzy2]

shoot better......i doubt it.......shoot juts as well, more than likely

What size groups does your rifle shoot at 50 yards on average? What do you shoot on any of the score based BR games out there? Honestly, I don't believe a word you are saying. This would be due to the fact I have never seen a Savage rimfire hold it's own against top tier rifles with shooters that know what they are doing. They may be fine rifles for the money, but they sure aren't competing with a Hall or Turbo based rifle built by a competent gunsmith. If you have the single Nationally Competitive Savage I'd love to see it and it's results.

 

[M-Cameron]

What size groups does your rifle shoot at 50 yards on average? What do you shoot on any of the score based BR games out there? Honestly, I don't believe a word you are saying. This would be due to the fact I have never seen a Savage rimfire hold it's own against top tier rifles with shooters that know what they are doing. They may be fine rifles for the money, but they sure aren't competing with a Hall or Turbo based rifle built by a competent gunsmith. If you have the single Nationally Competitive Savage I'd love to see it and it's results.

i shoot 3p 50ft, and 100yd prone

my 25 yard targets can be seen in the thread i supplied in post #5

this is what my rifle does on average at 100yds shooting eley tenex pistol (that is the 300yd target scaled to 100, NRA SR-21?)

minus the flyer, that is an x ring group.

i honestly dont think it will break a sweat at 50 yds.......

 

[benzy2]

I looked at the groups in that link and your 25 yard groups are bigger than what the good guys are shooting at 50 yards. This isn't to take anything away from you or your Savage, but it's a LONG way away from shooting in the .1's at 50 yards. It looks like it's shooting mid 2's to low 3's at 25 yards, which is great for an inexpensive rifle, but is not what a top end rifle will do. To claim it will keep up with anything out there is a big statement, one no other Savage Mk II owner has been able to support.

 

[M-Cameron]

I looked at the groups in that link and your 25 yard groups are bigger than what the good guys are shooting at 50 yards. This isn't to take anything away from you or your Savage, but it's a LONG way away from shooting in the .1's at 50 yards. It looks like it's shooting mid 2's to low 3's at 25 yards, which is great for an inexpensive rifle, but is not what a top end rifle will do. To claim it will keep up with anything out there is a big statement, one no other Savage Mk II owner has been able to support.

umm, at 25yds, with the exception of my first target which has a "flyer" (wasnt really trying for ultimate accuracy, i was shooting recreationally off a kneeling roll)....... .those are hole-in-hole groups....

then you made no comment on my 100yd targets........i really dont see how you can get much better than an X ring shooter.......whats that?, a quarter sized group at 100.....ill take that any day.

perhaps you would be so kind as to supply some of your 100yd targets for comparison...?

To claim it will keep up with anything out there is a big statement, one no other Savage Mk II owner has been able to support.

youve got my targets.......just because no one else has taken their mk2 to the max......or simply arent interested in doing so......doesnt mean that im wrong, because i have no one else saying the same.

 

[Maverick223]

Little late coming into this one, but I agree that replacing the stock on the FVT would be beneficial. I would suggest adding a Boyds SS Evolution or the like...tis a shame that Fajen doesn't make their Legacy adjustable stock for the Savage Mk.II/93 series rimfires.

I believe you'll find that Savage to be a fine rifle, easily one of the best values IMO.

 

[benzy2]

umm, at 25yds, with the exception of my first target which has a "flyer" (wasnt really trying for ultimate accuracy, i was shooting recreationally off a kneeling roll)....... .those are hole-in-hole groups....

then you made no comment on my 100yd targets........i really dont see how you can get much better than an X ring shooter.......whats that?, a quarter sized group at 100.....ill take that any day.

perhaps you would be so kind as to supply some of your 100yd targets for comparison...?

youve got my targets.......just because no one else has taken their mk2 to the max......or simply arent interested in doing so......doesnt mean that im wrong, because i have no one else saying the same.

Ignoring the one group with the flier, it's still about a .3" CTC group at 25 yards, hardly a world record. To be competitive, you need to be at worst in the .1's at 25 yards if not .0's. That's a big difference at 25 yards.

Your 100 yard target is nice, but again, not near world class. Better than me? Probably, but then again, I'm not claiming to be a top notch shooter or that my rifles will hang with anything out there either. I don't feel you can just throw fliers out and act like a rifle was better than any given shot. As that target sits, it's a 1.5" to 2" rifle with TOP end ammo. Those are group sizes that may win you local events, but won't compete nationally. Again, better than me? Probably. Still, not to the point that I would come near claiming it to be equal to top end custom built rifles.

Just because nobody has done it before doesn't mean it can't be done but it certainly raises the flag for people reading such claims, since it's never been done before and as far as I've seen, hasn't been done yet.

Don't take this as a negative against your ability or the groups you've shot. It's not meant as an insult. Those groups are good. The point is that they aren't on par with the best rifles in the world. The rifle, even with all the work imaginable, doesn't cost 1/3 of the cost of those rifles either.

 

[Coal Dragger]

Put this way M-Cameron try to find someone with an Anschutz 54 who will let you shoot a string with it, and see what your scores are like after that. Your equipment may be holding you back!

 

[SeekHer]

I wish I had known about the CMP 40X's and 52's they were selling. Those could be turned into top notch shooters. Heck I almost bought a Suhl for $500 once too.

BTW Coal Dragger you will rarely see an Anschutz win BR competitions. They win lots of other competitions but not BR. At least not in the USA. Obviously they can win local matches but even locally there are usually people with better shooters around. Don't get me wrong. I'd love to have one. But I'd love to have a lot of things. My Savage centerfire is a better rifle for what it is than an Anschutz rimfire is IMO.

Depends on which organization you belong to or shooting at and what their equipment regulations are...Each and every one of them have different rules--of course some overlap--and the gun you compared the ISU to, a heavy gun may or not be allowed or limited to a specific weight...They might have two, three, four or five class weights...Also, in some classes (Sporter &/or Light) rifles have to be magazine fed and some of the groups also limited the stock for Heavy and/or Unlimited class to something that resembles a standing stock so typical BR stocks are "Verboten"...There are also 25M/Y and 50M/Y matches in some groups and there you'll find Sporter class firing stock Anschutz/Feinwerkbau/Walther/SIG etc rifles at 25M.

ARA (Unl), ARG (14 & Unl), RBA (Unl), USRA (13.5), WRBF(Unl), ERABSF (15) or WRABFA (15), UKBR22 (15)

You'll see Anschutz rifles and/or action in the Sporter class and in Light class you'll see more actions then actual rifles.

Anschutz holds more World and Olympic gold medals then all the other companies combined and in the Sporter/Light Varmint/Hunter class their rifles and the other ISU makers, do very well...Surprisingly, Cooper of Montana isn't doing better with their two entries...I own a LVT (and a Jackson) and had the pleasure of shooting the TRP-3 a few times at the range...The LVT's stock design hinders it but I can't imagine why the TRP-3 isn't doing better in the standing.

I also have an old Winchester 52A (c. 1930?) and a 52 Sporter (c. 1955) and also a 52D (c. 1963)...Did I mention I collect rimfires and single shot rifles? I love the "D" gun, competed with it in a number of silhouettes events and placed a few times...I'm sorry to say, but the Model 52 just isn't in the league with today's target guns!

I feel it isn't as good a choice as the 40X for conversion to a BR gun even with that crappy trigger that's stock on the 40X as the 52s are worth far too much money, stock, to convert while the 40X and the Kimber 82G are still in production so the collector value isn't there...Sure, with a beat to Hell one you have nothing to lose but in NRA G to VG, no way...Also, there isn't the array of AMP available for it (since it really didn't need it back then) other then triggers.

While the target jobs get a little more attention when a production company puts them together they don't have anywhere near the tolerances obtained by custom smiths.

 

[neolithic1]

Look for a BRNO mod 4. They come with target sights that dismount and they have grooves for mounting a scope. I mounted a T36 to one of mine and have a pretty good time with it. I've shot paint balls off golf tees at 100 yards, cut playing cards in half at 50 yards and hit flys at 50 yards.

Often, finding the right ammo can be part of the equation. My BRNO's do well with Wolf Match and SK Rifle Match.

 

[benzy2]

Jeff, I know we've been over this before, but I've got a cz that will toss an occassional .0xx at 25 yards. Its luck, the rifle averages at .2 at 25 yards overall and would be a far stretch to push that its a .0xx rifle with a little more work. Stats say you should get a few groups where theyb all fall to the middle. That 2250 is nice, but was it a one time thing or is that what it shoots consistantly? Odds say once in a while things will line up for you.

 

[clutch]

I bought that Savage MKII FVT and it looked good until I tried to shoot it today.

Whoever decided that the comb height on that rifle matched up with the williams aperture sights must have never shot it.

After 6-8 layers of cardboard and some packaging tape, thankfully found in the trunk of my car, I got around to testing the rifle under conditions of changing lighting and variable gusting winds. I'm thinking most of my flyers were environmental.

This rifle shows potential with the irons that came with it and my 53 year old eyes.

Tomorrow the winds won't be as gusty so I suspect I'll have even better results.

To the gents that recommended this rifle, who do I need to look at for a decent stock?

Thanks,

Clutch

 

[benzy2]

Depends on what you want. If you are looking for a good, finished stock, SSS (savageshootersupply) has about the best, though they aren't overly cheap. If you want to finish it and do the final fitting yourself, Boyds is pretty good. Richards Micro fit are good for the price, but they are a bit rough. They also have extreme wait times so I would call ahead to verify a given style and wood option is available and in stock before ordering. The stock on the FVT is it's biggest drawback. I've built mine up in the comb with bondo, added shot to the rear of the stock, and epoxied steel rods into the front in hopes to cure many of it's flaws. It's alright this way, but certainly not like a quality stock.

 

[Sunray]

"...What do I need..." A heavy barreled .22 target rifle with good sights and trigger, then trying a box of as many brands of ammo as you can to find the ammo it shoots best. The price of said ammo means nothing.

 

[benzy2]

The price of said ammo means nothing.

I don't agree with this. You don't see anyone winning anything big using Federal Champion, Remington Thunderbolts, or CCI Blazer. Every rifle likes its own ammo and there is no one round fits all, but you do get better quality with the higher price, and typically better groups. If I were looking to shoot the best possible, I'd start at the top of the stomachable price range and work down rather than the other way. Save you a bit of time finding what works well.