What do you know about the .380?
- Thread starter Stinkyshoe
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longeyes
member
"Because a Glock 26 won't fit in your Levi's pocket. For that matter, neither will
the smaller Kahr 9's."
True, but neither will most .380s.
the smaller Kahr 9's."
True, but neither will most .380s.
braindead0
Member
Not true, at least with my .380 Mak. I've loaded 1000's of rounds of .380, much of them at "+P" levels (110gr at ~1000fps)
No brass problems yet.
tiberius
Member
Just so you know, they are out in numbers now I bought on eyesterday with a S/N in the 600 range, so there must be a lot more than that out there.
Keith
Member
It is true that "most" .380's will not fit in your pocket. That is because most .380 designs originated as (or are copied from) European police and military pistols that were never intended to be pocket pistols.
However, there ARE American designed .380's that have been designed from the ground up as concealment guns.
The best of these (in my humble opinion) is the Colt Mustang Pocketlite. These are beautiful locked-breech guns that are quite reliable and rival the little .25's and .32's for concealablity. The locked breech means that the recoil is neglible, allowing quick follow-up shots.
If you want a true pocket gun, the .380 is the way to go. Mustangs are getting hard to find and expensive, but there are others out there that will serve.
Even the larger .380's are not bad as concealment pieces, though it is true that some of the smaller nines rival them for size. I don't think a Glock 26 would fall into that category. They are much thicker and heavier than a piece like the PPK or Bersa.
Keith
However, there ARE American designed .380's that have been designed from the ground up as concealment guns.
The best of these (in my humble opinion) is the Colt Mustang Pocketlite. These are beautiful locked-breech guns that are quite reliable and rival the little .25's and .32's for concealablity. The locked breech means that the recoil is neglible, allowing quick follow-up shots.
If you want a true pocket gun, the .380 is the way to go. Mustangs are getting hard to find and expensive, but there are others out there that will serve.
Even the larger .380's are not bad as concealment pieces, though it is true that some of the smaller nines rival them for size. I don't think a Glock 26 would fall into that category. They are much thicker and heavier than a piece like the PPK or Bersa.
Keith
Stinkyshoe
Member
Keith
I definately agree. A friend of mine has one of those little Colt Mustangs and they are very cool. Its like a 1911 shrunk down. I have never fired it but I bet that it would bet that it would be fairly accurate out to 15-20 yards.
I definately agree. A friend of mine has one of those little Colt Mustangs and they are very cool. Its like a 1911 shrunk down. I have never fired it but I bet that it would bet that it would be fairly accurate out to 15-20 yards.
nvrquit
Member
.380's maybe not the 1st choice...
...but as said before(and most likely said better), it's better than nothing at all.
I own a Bersa Thunder380 Deluxe and Taurus PT58(with four hi-caps, thank you). I had a Bersa model 85, 13 round steel frame, but it cracked it's frame. The model 85 was more accurate than a Walther PPK(German made and I wish I had never sold it) and didn't bite me the way the PPK used to.
The Taurus PT58 is big for a .380, even larger/bulkier than a Beretta 84 or Browning BDA. Handles everything it's ever been fed. Accuracy it better than average.
The CorBon, Speer Gold Dots, Remington Golden Sabre and for me, the Federal Hydra Shoks are the only rounds I would consider for carry with the .380 ACP.
Some people just don't prefer or can't handle warm/hot 9x19 rounds in smaller packages that fit their hands, but seem to be okay with the .380 in pistols of the same size. I don't judge them, I help them find the best option that works for them that they can hit the target consistently with. My wife is one of these types. Doesn't like anything heavier/stouter in recoil than the .380 ACP. I wish that the Glock 25 or 28 were available for US civilian use. One of these would be good for her. The 25(G19 in size) isn't available for the US market and the 28(G26 in size) is for LEO only(bummer!).
Anyone have any experience with the Taurus PT938 or PT138? I've looked at these for the wife, but she usually isn't with me when I run across an example of either.
...but as said before(and most likely said better), it's better than nothing at all.
I own a Bersa Thunder380 Deluxe and Taurus PT58(with four hi-caps, thank you). I had a Bersa model 85, 13 round steel frame, but it cracked it's frame. The model 85 was more accurate than a Walther PPK(German made and I wish I had never sold it) and didn't bite me the way the PPK used to.
The Taurus PT58 is big for a .380, even larger/bulkier than a Beretta 84 or Browning BDA. Handles everything it's ever been fed. Accuracy it better than average.
The CorBon, Speer Gold Dots, Remington Golden Sabre and for me, the Federal Hydra Shoks are the only rounds I would consider for carry with the .380 ACP.
Some people just don't prefer or can't handle warm/hot 9x19 rounds in smaller packages that fit their hands, but seem to be okay with the .380 in pistols of the same size. I don't judge them, I help them find the best option that works for them that they can hit the target consistently with. My wife is one of these types. Doesn't like anything heavier/stouter in recoil than the .380 ACP. I wish that the Glock 25 or 28 were available for US civilian use. One of these would be good for her. The 25(G19 in size) isn't available for the US market and the 28(G26 in size) is for LEO only(bummer!).
Anyone have any experience with the Taurus PT938 or PT138? I've looked at these for the wife, but she usually isn't with me when I run across an example of either.
DDGator
Member
I agree that if you are going to carry a .380 the size of a Bersa Thunder or Sig or CZ--you might was well have a subcompact 9mm.
But, if you are carrying .380 in a tiny little gun like a Kel-Tec P-3AT -- the size/power advantage is a lot different.
But, if you are carrying .380 in a tiny little gun like a Kel-Tec P-3AT -- the size/power advantage is a lot different.
DDGator
Member
Just for kicks I weighed by P-3AT rig on my digital postal scale. The whole rig -- P-3AT fully loaded (7 rounds of Federal Hydrashok) with leather pocket holster -- 12 oz. on the nose.
I'll say it again I saw that bulged .380 brass on TWO Izmash pistols, never ever saw a problem with other MFG of maks, nor in 9mm mak caliber.
Stinkyshoe
Member
Doc Rob
So would say that the Mak 380 would be a good kit gun? Are they fairly consistant in their accuracy? How long is the barrel on the 380?
Thanks
Ss
So would say that the Mak 380 would be a good kit gun? Are they fairly consistant in their accuracy? How long is the barrel on the 380?
Thanks
Ss
Mastrogiacomo
Member
I'd go for a Beretta Cheetah myself -- but I'd take along a Glock 26 or my faithful compact type M Beretta....
clubsoda22
member
okay, so you can buy a small 9mm that is as light and concealable as a PPK/Bersa. I assure you it also kicks more. Big guy like myself is better suited with a compact gun in 9mm, .40, .45 (although i'd still have no qualms about packing a ppk/bersa). Someone with small hands, someone who isn't an experianced shooter, isn't gonna like a service caliber compact.
I did a family outing to the range. Me and my dad brought a Ruger MK2, taurus PT92 and Colt Gold Cup. We also rented a glock 26 and a walther ppk. The range master, seeing us shooting the ppk let us try his bersa. My mother and sister who shoot very rarely shot best with the walther and bersa. No big supprise there.
Here are the womens complaints. (Small handed/framed guys can relate):
-The Ruger MK2 Government, firing a .22 and weighing in at 2.9lbs, had very light recoil, but was too heavy. Wouldn't consider a .22 much of a defensive round either
-The Taurus PT92 AFS, with it's double stack magazine, was too wide, thought the recoil was managable due to it's 2lb weight and recoil reducing modifications. Still a bit too heavy
-The Colt 1911 Gold Cup, with it's big .45 caliber bullet, simply kicked too hard (even with recoil reducing modifications and it's 2.5+lb weight), though the single stack mag made the grip fit their hands better.
-The Glock 26, with it's double stacked magazine and light weight, was a little bit too hand filling, but the main complaint was of the sharp recoil. The weight was right though
-The Walther PPK, with it's single stack magazine, light weight and .380 cartridge, was perfect. It fit their hands perfectly, was not too thick like the taurus or glock. Not too heavy like the colt or ruger The recoil was managable and the cartrige is suitable for self defence with the right ammo (triton quick shok being my ammo of choice in 380). The gun was as exceptionally accurate for a pistol of its size. They also liked the lines of the gun, mentioning that it was "cute"
-The Bersa Thunder was everything the walther was for less money. In fact, the only thing the walther had that the bersa didn't for an additional $300 was an 18 pound DA trigger. The bersa's was light and crisp, more like 7 lbs DA. The grip was also better. Me and my dad with our large hands occasionally got bit by the walther, but not he bersa. Our hands just sat lower naturally on the bersa. Me and my dad have pretty much decided on making the next gun a bersa.
When it comes to self defence, if me or dad aren't on hand (he works, i'm at college) the women have to use the too big taurus, the too powerful colt, the too heavy and underpowered ruger or (HOLY SH*T) my winchester defender 12 ga, which is just too much gun for most people, especially them. Now does the PPK/Bersa make sence?
I did a family outing to the range. Me and my dad brought a Ruger MK2, taurus PT92 and Colt Gold Cup. We also rented a glock 26 and a walther ppk. The range master, seeing us shooting the ppk let us try his bersa. My mother and sister who shoot very rarely shot best with the walther and bersa. No big supprise there.
Here are the womens complaints. (Small handed/framed guys can relate):
-The Ruger MK2 Government, firing a .22 and weighing in at 2.9lbs, had very light recoil, but was too heavy. Wouldn't consider a .22 much of a defensive round either
-The Taurus PT92 AFS, with it's double stack magazine, was too wide, thought the recoil was managable due to it's 2lb weight and recoil reducing modifications. Still a bit too heavy
-The Colt 1911 Gold Cup, with it's big .45 caliber bullet, simply kicked too hard (even with recoil reducing modifications and it's 2.5+lb weight), though the single stack mag made the grip fit their hands better.
-The Glock 26, with it's double stacked magazine and light weight, was a little bit too hand filling, but the main complaint was of the sharp recoil. The weight was right though
-The Walther PPK, with it's single stack magazine, light weight and .380 cartridge, was perfect. It fit their hands perfectly, was not too thick like the taurus or glock. Not too heavy like the colt or ruger The recoil was managable and the cartrige is suitable for self defence with the right ammo (triton quick shok being my ammo of choice in 380). The gun was as exceptionally accurate for a pistol of its size. They also liked the lines of the gun, mentioning that it was "cute"
-The Bersa Thunder was everything the walther was for less money. In fact, the only thing the walther had that the bersa didn't for an additional $300 was an 18 pound DA trigger. The bersa's was light and crisp, more like 7 lbs DA. The grip was also better. Me and my dad with our large hands occasionally got bit by the walther, but not he bersa. Our hands just sat lower naturally on the bersa. Me and my dad have pretty much decided on making the next gun a bersa.
When it comes to self defence, if me or dad aren't on hand (he works, i'm at college) the women have to use the too big taurus, the too powerful colt, the too heavy and underpowered ruger or (HOLY SH*T) my winchester defender 12 ga, which is just too much gun for most people, especially them. Now does the PPK/Bersa make sence?
nvrquit
Member
Type M Beretta 92 is good....
... for those that have smaller hand size, whether they be male or female.
A friend, while not much smaller in physical stature than myself(5' 11'', 215 lbs.), has a considerably smaller hand size. None of the common double stack 9mm's fit him in any way. A Kahr worked, but he wanted something that had a safety and is DA/SA(so no 1911's). He ended up with a Beretta model 85, which he says fits him like the proverbial "glove". At the next show, a vendor/dealer had a Beretta Compact Carry II(92 style, Type M frame, Inox with only a left side safety). While larger than the 85 Cheetah, the CC II fit well enough for him to consider. So, there's an option for the "smaller handed" shooter.
BTW, the Beretta Compact line(Type L & Type M) are being discontinued from normal schedule production. So if you want one, get it now while inventory is available.
On that note, the last time I saw a post by Mastrogiacomo(Beretta Forum), the Type M was still on the "wants" list. Congrats on the "new" Beretta! Did you ever get the 85 Cheetah in nickel that was on the list?
... for those that have smaller hand size, whether they be male or female.
A friend, while not much smaller in physical stature than myself(5' 11'', 215 lbs.), has a considerably smaller hand size. None of the common double stack 9mm's fit him in any way. A Kahr worked, but he wanted something that had a safety and is DA/SA(so no 1911's). He ended up with a Beretta model 85, which he says fits him like the proverbial "glove". At the next show, a vendor/dealer had a Beretta Compact Carry II(92 style, Type M frame, Inox with only a left side safety). While larger than the 85 Cheetah, the CC II fit well enough for him to consider. So, there's an option for the "smaller handed" shooter.
BTW, the Beretta Compact line(Type L & Type M) are being discontinued from normal schedule production. So if you want one, get it now while inventory is available.
On that note, the last time I saw a post by Mastrogiacomo(Beretta Forum), the Type M was still on the "wants" list. Congrats on the "new" Beretta! Did you ever get the 85 Cheetah in nickel that was on the list?
"Why would you want a .380 if you could get, say, a Glock 26 in 9mm?"
There's a very easy and important answer to that question. My Kel-Tec P3AT is a true pocket gun which isn't too big of a gun to actually carry in the front pocket of jeans or other pants. The Glock 26 and similar is NOT a true pocket gun or ankle carry gun - while very small and a nice compromise of size to power, it's still too big to stick in your pocket, especially jeans wear, and not look ridiculous, like you're carrying a brick - and good luck trying to draw quickly from jeans in a pinch situation. Ditto as to ankle carry - yes you can ankle carry a G26-sized dude, but it's too much weight and too high of a chance to print for comfortable, worry-free ankle carry, for me anyway. To me, the role of the G26, or the XD 3", or similar, are for deep concealment carry, like a tuckable IWB or belly band type carry - not as handy or accessible as pocket carry, but nevertheless there's a use for it, particularly in my view, for say when jogging, bicycling, or the like. And if you're gonna get a gun that size, why not get a .40, BTW?
There's a very easy and important answer to that question. My Kel-Tec P3AT is a true pocket gun which isn't too big of a gun to actually carry in the front pocket of jeans or other pants. The Glock 26 and similar is NOT a true pocket gun or ankle carry gun - while very small and a nice compromise of size to power, it's still too big to stick in your pocket, especially jeans wear, and not look ridiculous, like you're carrying a brick - and good luck trying to draw quickly from jeans in a pinch situation. Ditto as to ankle carry - yes you can ankle carry a G26-sized dude, but it's too much weight and too high of a chance to print for comfortable, worry-free ankle carry, for me anyway. To me, the role of the G26, or the XD 3", or similar, are for deep concealment carry, like a tuckable IWB or belly band type carry - not as handy or accessible as pocket carry, but nevertheless there's a use for it, particularly in my view, for say when jogging, bicycling, or the like. And if you're gonna get a gun that size, why not get a .40, BTW?
longeyes
member
Futo Inu,
I understand that. My point was that most .380s aren't pocket-sized
either. The P3AT is another story altogether. I was talking
about similarly-sized weapons.
I understand that. My point was that most .380s aren't pocket-sized
either. The P3AT is another story altogether. I was talking
about similarly-sized weapons.
Dorrin79
Member
another point about super-small 9mms is that they have ridiculous muzzle flip. The small .380 blowbacks don't.
To me, the Bersa .380 didn't seem to have any recoil - just a little snap.
By comparison, my KT P11 kicks hard into the palm, and muzzle flips like you wouldn't believe. The only other gun I've fired with that kind of muzzle flip was a 2" .357mag snubbie.
So, for follow-up shots / rapid fire, I think the .380 is a better choice in many ways than a subcompact 9mm.
Overall, though, a small but not too small 9mm (like a Kahr K9) is probably the best compromise.
The point about the Walther clones not really being pocket guns is also well taken. The only true pocket gun in .380 that I know of is the P3AT. The Colt might qualify, I've never handled one. Bersas and similar are definitely not, although they conceal well IWB.
To me, the Bersa .380 didn't seem to have any recoil - just a little snap.
By comparison, my KT P11 kicks hard into the palm, and muzzle flips like you wouldn't believe. The only other gun I've fired with that kind of muzzle flip was a 2" .357mag snubbie.
So, for follow-up shots / rapid fire, I think the .380 is a better choice in many ways than a subcompact 9mm.
Overall, though, a small but not too small 9mm (like a Kahr K9) is probably the best compromise.
The point about the Walther clones not really being pocket guns is also well taken. The only true pocket gun in .380 that I know of is the P3AT. The Colt might qualify, I've never handled one. Bersas and similar are definitely not, although they conceal well IWB.
Stinkyshoe
Member
Okay, so the Mak isn't the best pocket pistol I guess. I probably wouldn't carry it in a jean pocket anyway. In fact I doubt I would carry it period because we don't have conceiled carry here yet. Yeah it is a bummer I know. It would mainly want it to have when running or when out checking our vacant properties in the country(a twelve gauge is ideal though). However, I hardly think it is legal to carry it when running. I run around a wooded area in town, so who knows if there are some big dogs running around looking for a mouthful of food. I don't want to be a statistic of robery or of a beating, but at the same time, I don't think it would be worth it to get caught with a gun. I think I will stick to my surefire e2e and my legs to get me out of harms way. I just thought I would carry it during hunting season in a holster, since that is legal.
I suppose that the Glock would be better for stopping power and flawless function, but by the sounds of it, there are a few die hard Makarov lovers here. Does it make a difference where they are made? How would you the rate the Russian model to the Bulgarian to the other manufacturers?
Thanks
Ss
I suppose that the Glock would be better for stopping power and flawless function, but by the sounds of it, there are a few die hard Makarov lovers here. Does it make a difference where they are made? How would you the rate the Russian model to the Bulgarian to the other manufacturers?
Thanks
Ss
If your heart is set on a Mak, by all means get one. The East German made guns are the BEST you'll find,though they were only made in 9mmMak caliber. The blueing is thicker, the fit and finish is good and they tend to have less inporter's marks. On the bad side, they all shipped with cheap plastic target stoks that need to be replaced. The stock fixed sights are small, but painting the rear of the front sight blaze orange helps a lot.
The Mak is indeed a value on the defensive pistol market, and its designed to be shot with cheap corrosive steel cased ammo. Coddling it with non corrosive brass cased ammo, it should last a lifetime.
Overall the Mak is almost as big as a Colt Commander, it's quite a lot larger than a PPK. Still, thanks to the vast numbers imported, you can find all kinds of aftermarket goodies, grips, sights, replacement parts, etc. Even gunleather is available, but i know a few guys still using a holster for a SW439 that fits it well.
www. makarov.com seems to be down at the moment but thay have all kinds of good stuff.
The Mak is indeed a value on the defensive pistol market, and its designed to be shot with cheap corrosive steel cased ammo. Coddling it with non corrosive brass cased ammo, it should last a lifetime.
Overall the Mak is almost as big as a Colt Commander, it's quite a lot larger than a PPK. Still, thanks to the vast numbers imported, you can find all kinds of aftermarket goodies, grips, sights, replacement parts, etc. Even gunleather is available, but i know a few guys still using a holster for a SW439 that fits it well.
www. makarov.com seems to be down at the moment but thay have all kinds of good stuff.
wild billz
Member
I have a Bersa 380. I t can fit in your front jeans pocket, given you are not wearing skin tight pants. It conceals better with a shirt untocked over it, buit it fits me atleast. I carry it in my shorts pockets as well. I just got it actually for my wife, but am thinking about stealing it) becasue it was small and fit in pockets. I normally carry a Glock 23 IWB, big caliber difference, but the 380 serves a purpose. Given I live in Florida, its nice to carry in a pocket instead of IWB or a fanny pack. I know people who carry smaller guns and the major drawback is that they hurt to shoot enough to become profficenet with them. I shot a really small 380 (dont remeber which, NAA Guardian I think) and it hurt, like I was catching a hmmer in my hand. The Bersa is nice to shoot.
clubsoda22
member
380 is enough of a caliber for defence with +p ammo. Let's remember that 99% of the time no one shoots. For those who want to play the 1% game, 99% of the time when you shoot, 380 will be enough. For that last fraction of a percent, you'd probably want a rifle. 
The .380 is a bit marginal balistically but IMO with good ammo and good shot placement it`ll certainly get the job done. My wife`s .380 Gov`t Pocketlite is a dream to shoot,it`s almost hard to miss with it. A relative of mine is a huge Kahr fan,he`s got a K9 Elite with an Optima on it and a PM-9 also. We were shooting some "combat drills" and he was doing okay with the Kahrs,best with the K9. I let him try the Colt .380 and his times dropped by about 1/3 and his groups shrunk to less than half the size ! He looked at me shocked and said "Hey this thing really shoots,I just can`t miss with it!". Now what`s better 2 marginal hits with a 9mm or 3 really good hits with a .380 in the same time frame? Course, that said I often carry a P-11 loaded with Corbons. I just practice more. Marcus
Marcus
"Why would you want a .380 if you could get, say, a Glock 26 in 9mm?"
There are 3 big factors here:
The glock is CONSIDERABLY thicker
The glock has sharper recoil. The darn thing wants to jump right out of your hands...
The glock costs 3 times as much
Stinkyshoe,
"I suppose that the Glock would be better for stopping power and flawless function"
The glock does have a ballistic advantage (9mm Luger is better than 9mm Makarov/.380, it goes faster), but it DOES NOT have a reliability advantage over the Mak. I have seen glocks jam. I've had glocks jam on me while I'm shoothing them. However, I have NEVER seen a Makarov jam. You will not find a more reliable pistol.
If you want a Mak, you should go for it. You won't be sorry. I dont' know how comfortable it would be to run with one though, but other than that it should work for you...
Also, I'd recomend the 9mm Makarov caliber. It is better than .380 in every way, bigger bullet going faster. It isn't a HUGE differance, but it is enough to take into consideration...
Also, I like the "Star" plastic grips that normaly come with the Mak, but most people don't. If you get a Mak, you might want to look into buying a new grip. It should be pretty cheap...
There are 3 big factors here:
The glock is CONSIDERABLY thicker
The glock has sharper recoil. The darn thing wants to jump right out of your hands...
The glock costs 3 times as much
Stinkyshoe,
"I suppose that the Glock would be better for stopping power and flawless function"
The glock does have a ballistic advantage (9mm Luger is better than 9mm Makarov/.380, it goes faster), but it DOES NOT have a reliability advantage over the Mak. I have seen glocks jam. I've had glocks jam on me while I'm shoothing them. However, I have NEVER seen a Makarov jam. You will not find a more reliable pistol.
If you want a Mak, you should go for it. You won't be sorry. I dont' know how comfortable it would be to run with one though, but other than that it should work for you...
Also, I'd recomend the 9mm Makarov caliber. It is better than .380 in every way, bigger bullet going faster. It isn't a HUGE differance, but it is enough to take into consideration...
Also, I like the "Star" plastic grips that normaly come with the Mak, but most people don't. If you get a Mak, you might want to look into buying a new grip. It should be pretty cheap...
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