What does, "Get an older Wingmaster," mean?

[1894]

I've decided it's what I want. But, how old is old enough? Any one got a range of years I should be looking for?

And worse, how do I tell that it *is* old enough? Apparently, Remington wants you to call or email with the serial #; and it seems they're sometimes wrong (http://goo.gl/sg5v8). Is there a serial number code or pictoral wiki somewhere that shows stock checkering by years?

I found this: http://www.remingtonsociety.com/questions/BLACKPOWDERX.htm

Which is the same as this: http://oldguns.net/sn_php/remdates.php

But, it only goes up to 1972. Maybe that will become moot once my range of years question is answered. I'm not worried about how to tell if it's in good condition in this thread. (I read the sticky) Thanks Dave.

Intent is clays. But it will probably see use for other stuff as well (possibly w/ barrel changes) so I don't want the receiver limited by heat treating like some of the original 1911s are.

Thanks in advance!

1894

 

[rcmodel]

I'm not an 870 exprt by any means, but:

All 870's ever made are heat treated as well and as strong & durable as the next one.

If you want to shoot steel shot, you will need one later then 1991 when steel shot became manditory throughout the US for migratory bird hunting.

At that point, the Rem-Choke system was steel shot rated and good to go.

Much past the 90's, I'd say quality begin to decline.

But the best of the best quality Wingmasters IMO, were those made in the late 50's, 60's.

If you want to see what they looked & worked like then?
Look at this thread.
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=654788

Was I in the market for one, I would find one of that era and get an extra modern Rem-Choke barrel for steel shot, if I needed to use steel shot.

rc

 

[1894]

Thanks rc. I already mopped the drool off my keyboard once. Now I have to do it again.

What happens if you shoot steel shot out of one of those? Can it be fixed w/ a barrel swap?

 

[rcmodel]

In the beginning, steel shot wad protection was not all that good, and the hard steel shot could perforate the shot cup and score the softer barrels of the day.

Also, muzzles back then were not as thick as they are now.
But of course that made them lighter and easier to swing too!

The un-compressible steel shot column would, or could swage out a tight choke (full) and make a dog knot on the end of the barrel.

If the barrel had a vent rib?
It could pop the solder joint on the front rib support, and a loose rib would could result.

In all, steel shot loads are vastly improved over what was loaded then.

But still, if I was going to shoot steel shot in any quantity I would get a new extra barrel with choke tubes rated for steel shot loads.

rc

 

[Dave McCracken]

You're welcome. I may not be the best one to ask, I like ALL 870s.

However.....

The 870TB trap gun I sold to a friend had gorgeous wood and a finish a sgood as it gets on a factory gun. It was made in 1978.

There's two 73 870s here, both former agency weapons. Frankenstein's reciever was "Parkerized" but the Ex cruiser gun has a high level of fit and finish.

Same with both the 1950 and 1955 guns, the former mine for more than a half century. Same high level.

The only newer 870 here is an Express from the early 90s. It took a few hundred shucks to smooth the action, but it's not bad now.

ALL 870s are good. Some older ones seem great. If I were pressed into a date, call it 1980....

 

[TurtlePhish]

But the best of the best quality Wingmasters IMO, were those made in the late 50's, 60's.

If you want to see what they looked & worked like then?
Look at this thread.
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=654788

Thanks rc. I already mopped the drool off my keyboard once. Now I have to do it again.

I appreciate the flattery. Thanks guys

 

[rcmodel]

Dave McCracken said:

If I were pressed into a date, call it 1980....

I bow to an 870 expert!!

1980 it is then!!

rc

 

[1894]

Wow, you guys are fast!

rc: Thanks for the explanation. It is very well written

Dave: According to current stats there are (Members: 161,388, Active Members: 13,671) people who think you are the best person to ask.

TurtlePhish: I saved your "monitor" pic as, "What an 870 should look like.jpg."

The Shotgun Gods have spoken. Now I only have 8 years to figure out how to identify.

Off to memorize the date codes. Or, maybe to drool over this again:http://goo.gl/ue5xw

 

[proven]

turtlephish, that is gorgeous! very fine shotgun, indeed.

dave and rc, the knowledge you guys possess never ceases to amaze me.

i may be on the lookout for an older wingmaster myself in the near future and appreciate the content here.

1894, good luck in your search!

 

[TurtlePhish]

TurtlePhish: I saved your "monitor" pic as, "What an 870 should look like.jpg."

turtlephish, that is gorgeous! very fine shotgun, indeed.

You guys are giving me newfound confidence in my photography skills.
Not to mention pride in my small collection.

1894, there are tons of used Wingmasters for sale, cheap, on Gunbroker. As long as they aren't post-Cerberus (which most of them are too old to be) they should easily fulfill any quality requirements you might have.

 

[1894]

I haven't read it all yet, but this should prove useful:

http://www.remingtonsociety.com/rsa/journals/870

 

[rcmodel]

there are tons of used Wingmasters for sale, cheap, on Gunbroker.

There are tons of old Wingmasters for sale in pawn shops, gun shops, Cabala's, trading post newspapers, farm auctions, and estate sales too

Seems the modern generation don't even want them if thay aren't all black synthetic, 3 1/2" chambered, with rails, and an 18" barrel!

I pitty the fools!

rc

 

[TurtlePhish]

I haven't read it all yet, but this should prove useful:

http://www.remingtonsociety.com/rsa/journals/870

I read that whole page a while back, great resource!

 

[Elmer]

There are tons of old Wingmasters for sale in pawn shops, gun shops, Cabala's, trading post newspapers, farm auctions, and estate sales too

Seems the modern generation don't even want them if thay aren't all black synthetic, 3 1/2" chambered, with rails, and an 18" barrel!

I pitty the fools!

rc

You're right. I've picked up a couple old 870's for cheap lately, including a 90%+, 2nd year production I just got for $175.00. In both cases, they had been advertised in the classifieds at a very good price, but had not sold right away because they were only 2 3/4" chambers.

I've probably fired 35,000+ rounds of 12 gauge. Maybe a few hundred of those were 3".

 

[TurtlePhish]

had not sold right away because they were only 2 3/4" chambers.

I've probably fired 35,000+ rounds of 12 gauge. Maybe a few hundred of those were 3".

I don't understand the whole magnum thing for anyone other than hunters... 2 3/4" is all I'm willing to shoot a lot of and I'm sure it'll kill stuff just as dead as 3" with the right loads.

 

[rcmodel]

I don't understand the whole magnum thing for anyone other than hunters

I have hunted for nearly 60 years now and have never owned a 3" gun, other then a 20 ga. Ithaca/SKB double.
And I have never fired a 3" shell in it.

I have killed nearly everything you can hunt in the mid-west with an A5 Browning or the 20 Ithaca and 2 3/4" shells, and have never felt the need for longer, or more powerful shotgun shells.

To me, more shot = more recoil = more misses.
If a 2 3/4" won't kill it at 40+ yards, you won't hit it at 50+ yards with a longer shell anyway.

rc

 

[Gordon]

I think Wingmasters are OK up to about 1991 at least, but you certainly won't get an argument from me that good ones are pre 1980. I think Flexitab is way over rated and the earlier Chromed bolt and carrier are desire able.
I actually have an 870 question: was the 870 ever made with a steel rather than alloy trigger guard? If so when?

 

[rcmodel]

To my knowledge, there was never a steel trigger group made for any of the post war "new" Remington model shotguns.

Part of the design goal for the 870 was for cutting costs, and WWII breakthroughs in aluminum casting & anodizing was WAY cheaper them milling a trigger housing out of a block of steel like Winchester was still doing on the Model 12.

I think I remember somebody made an after-market steel trigger housing for them way back when I was a young'n, but I have no idea who, or why??

Might have been the trap-gun crowd wanting to add weight to reduce recoil?

rc

 

[HamiltonSD]

I've had a couple of Remington 870 Wingmasters 12 gauge shotguns and the 2005 works as good as the 1970 did, after thousands of shots in each, both have been excellent. I hunt upland, waterfowl and shoot skeet and trap with my Wingmaster. Now that I'm shooting a lot of clays, I've thought about trying a Citori or Beretta skeet gun but I'm happy with how the smoothly I can take the second shot. Still haven't shot a clean round but that's probably the shooter not the gun.

Mine has the 3 inch chamber, though only have rarely used anything but 2 3/4 inch shells. Nice to have a choice but the longer shells are definitely felt. I don't think I'd like 3.5" mags much.

I've heard a lot of negative remarks about Remington's quality but I wouldn't hesitate to pickup a new Wingmaster, or an 1100 semi-auto Remington either. They have introduced new models which failed miserably but the 870, especially the Wingmaster has been an extremely reliable model.

If you buy a new one, be sure to clean it thoroughly before using it the first time.

 

[Virginian]

Any Remington barrel since 1950 is okay for steel. That's ALL 870s. Do not shoot anything bigger than #2 steel through anything tighter than a modified fixed choke. The RemChoke in 12 gauge arrived in 1986 and most waterfowl areas were then requiring non toxic shot. Any RemChoke barrel is okay for anything as long as the choke tube is so rated. Remington puts steel on the tubes rated for steel, and have since day one.
870 receivers are not heat treated. They are machined from a solid block of forged 4*** steel. All 3" and 2-3/4" receivers are identical. The ejector and spring are different, that is all.
There is no difference in quality of finishing that I can discern between Wingmasters of any age. There have been a lot of cosmetic variations thru the years, and some recent changes in the magazine cap retention system, which I HATE. The reason you see "older Wingmaster" recommended so much is because you can get one of those for about the same money as a new Express, which is built to a price point and it not nearly as nicely finished.
All barrels will interchange up to the SuperMags, and I know you can do some barrel swapping there too, but I don't remember the details. The chamber length will determine what maximum length shell you can safely shoot. The receiver designation will determine whether or not it will reliably eject the shell length, whether or not it will safely fire it. Example: a 3" shell may fire safely in a 3" barrel in a 2-3/4" receiver, but the hull will not usually reliably eject because the ejector lip and spring are located 1/4" further forward. Up until the 80's made Remington made Wingmasters with both 2-3/4" and 3" chambers, and then they dropped the 2-3/4" models since you can shoot both in the 3" anyway.
A lot of people prefer the 50's style. I like the 1963 thru 1979 editions. Until 1975 they used chrome plated lifters, and they may not have all been perfect, but I have not seen a one of those that wasn't a very nicely built gun. But even a brand new Wingmaster is a very nice gun, but they are also priced accordingly.
The big thing is to find a good deal on a used Wingmaster, in really good condition, depending on how much you want to spend, and whether or not you can live with fixed chokes or not. After much searching, I found a cherry 1976 Magnum edition, and I added a 3" Light Contour barrel. If I hadn't sold my 1974 Wingmaster I would have avoided a 30 year quest to find another one just like it. This is as close as I am going to try to get now.
Good luck.

 

[ISO1600]

I was given a 1973 Express by my Father in Law, and it's probably as nice as a new Wingmaster.... Much nicer than the Express i bought new in 2003 (and have long since sold).

I'm in the market for an "old" Wingmaster 20ga, and like to make a pit stop at the local pawn shops. Figure i'll find a nice 20ga sooner or later

 

[SwampWolf]

There have been a lot of cosmetic variations thru the years,

One of which that've I've always detested was the use of impressed checkering on gun stocks, starting sometime in the early sixties and lasting way too long; a feeble effort to mimic real checkering cheaply. Happily, the days of impressed checkering seem to be long over, with machine checkering becoming almost as good as well-executed hand-checkering and better than less than well-executed hand-checkering.

 

[Gordon]

"I was given a 1973 Express by my Father in Law, and it's probably as nice as a new Wingmaster.... Much nicer than the Express i bought new in 2003 (and have long since sold)."

they did not make "express" junk in 1973

 

[Dave McCracken]

Gordon, Allen Timney made a steel TG for the 870, in conjunction with his triggers, either standard or release. A safety( These were intended for trap) was optional. These were pricey.

1980 is an arbitrary cutoff. New WMs are well made, they lack some cachet in my eyes but that's just personal.

I do NOT like the gussied up "gold" shield on the newer trap guns and WMs. Plain and simple works.....

 

[TurtlePhish]

The anodizing on the aluminum trigger assembles can be polished off and give a nice two-tone look to the gun, for those who like that sort of thing.