what firearms could discharge if dropped?

[brentn]

Older designs are of course probably the most popular. What designs do you know of that if dropped 'could' potentially trip the hammer and cause an accidental discharge.

I can't think of any really, but my experience in firearms is rather new.

 

[BobbyQuickdraw]

Any weapon where the firing pin rests directly on the chamber. Older revolvers especially. And it also depends on what condition they're dropped in. If a 1911 or a Beretta 92 has the safety off and the hammer cocked, dropping that is going to be a bad thing.

 

[macFarlaine]

Not dropped,but I remember an incident 20 years ago when doing some walked up snipe shooting.The chap walking next to me had a old hammer gun,the hammer was cocked and he had it pointing towards the ground.As we walked through the marshy ground the hammer fell and the gun discharged he blew a whole through his boot and lost his big toe.

 

[JoseM]

Is this in response to the article in latest Rifleman (from the NRA membership) where it says "as California goes, so does the country" or there abouts? In that article it was talking about making it hard to buy handguns that passed their inspection process and this was one part...para-phrased of course.

 

[SDC]

Almost ANY firearm can fall into the category of "may fire if dropped", but usually only if they're not well-maintained or have been modified somehow.

 

[Baba Louie]

1st one that comes to mind is a Colt SAA when cylinder is fully charged, hammer down and dropped... which is why I/we were taught to load one, skip one, load 4, ease hammer down on empty chamber. Maybe 3-screw Rugers as well. Maybe all early 1911's w/out the firing pin block as well under the right/wrong circumstances.

 

[divemedic]

S&W model 59. I dropped one. It went bang. Shot a hole in my wall. Scared the crap outta me.

 

[Superlite27]

If a 1911 or a Beretta 92 has the safety off and the hammer cocked, dropping that is going to be a bad thing.

A 1911 would be safer with the hammer cocked than resting on the firing pin. You still have to depress the grip safety to trigger it with the hammer back. Not so if it falls on the hammer while it's sitting on the firing pin.

 

[isp2605]

For an auto, any without a firing pin block. That would include 1st gen S&W such as the 39 and 59 and the Colt 70 Series. For the Colt it wouldn't matter if it was cocked and locked or with the hammer down. For the 70 series the safety does not block the firing pin so nothing prevents the firing pin from moving if dropped. For the S&W doesn't matter if the hammer is down. The firing pins are short enough that with the hammer down the pin did not rest on the primer. The firing pin rides in the channel and when dropped from a sufficient height and at just the right angle with nothing to stop the firing pin from going forward it can strike a primer, maybe with enough force to fire the rd. There are a lot of variables. How high was it dropped, did the gun strike the ground on the muzzle at just the right angle, are the primers harder, etc.
For revolvers, particularly SA design, the early ones and at least a couple of modern ones, don't have a hammer block which stops the hammer from hitting the primer unless the trigger is pulled to release the block.

 

[H2O MAN]

what firearms could discharge if dropped?

Loaded ones.

 

[Owen]

any and all firearms can discharge when dropped. the drop safeties are still mechanical safeties. Do not rely on mechanical safeties.


(On the other hand, if you do drop a gun, let it fall. your chances are better than if you try to catch it.)

 

[Grizzly Adams]

SDC took the word right out of my mouth!

 

[RPCVYemen]

any and all firearms can discharge when dropped. the drop safeties are still mechanical safeties. Do not rely on mechanical safeties.

I have no objection to that as a mantra.

But I have to tell you that when I looked at my Ruger Blackhawk transfer bar, I am not sure how it could fail and allow gun to discharge. It looks to me like you could take a ball peen hammer and bash on the back of a cocked hammer until you broke the sear (or the notches), and drive the hammer forward. Then you could bash all day on the back of the hammer all day. No discharge.

I don't know if you've looked at one of these, but it's fundamentally different from a lot of other safeties I have seen. The "safety" does not hold the hammer back. The hammer has a notch right behind the firing pin. If the transfer bar doesn't slide up and into the notch, there is no contact between the hammer and firing pin.

A failure of the transfer bar means that it won't move up into place, so the weapon will be rendered inoperable.

That makes it sort of a "positive" safety as opposed to some plunger holding back a firing pin - a "negative" safety. Presumably, if the plunger in a plunger system fails, the firing pin can move forward. In the transfer bar system, if the transfer bar fails, the hammer cannot contact the firing pin to drive it forward.

Bill Ruger did a good job.

Is there empirical evidence of a Ruger transfer bar safety failing and causing a discharge? I know Cowboy Action shooter complain about transfer bars breaking, but I think that causes issues for them because the weapon won't fire.

Mike

 

[Liko81]

ANY firearm that is dropped CAN discharge. Now that we have that out of the way, it is far more likely to happen to some designs than others.

Autoloaders with a firing pin block and revolvers with a transfer bar are designed specifically to provide "drop safety"; the firing pin will not have free travel to contact the primer unless a trigger pull sets the transfer bar or clears the block. Therefore, any gun with such a device has a very low risk of AD resulting from a drop, while guns that lack them (older designs) have a higher risk.

SA weapons like the 1911 design are at higher risk. They are designed to be carried "cocked and locked", and the firing pin with the hammer down is resting against the cartridge primer or comes VERY close. A 1911 in Condition 2 (hammer down on a loaded round, safety off) is VERY unsafe in terms of drop safety as a strike on the hammer will generally be sufficient to send the pin into the primer, and for this reason (and others) condition 2 is advised against by most knowledgeable 1911 owners. In other loaded conditions such as Condition 1 (cocked and locked), a strike on the hammer must overcome the lockback mechanism, and while rare, a gun dropped "just wrong" will do exactly that. Most single and double-action revolvers without a hammer block or transfer bar are similarly at risk whether cocked or uncocked, and for general safety revolvers should be carried hammer-down on an empty chamber or already-fired brass. Yes, that removes one round from an already-small carrying capacity, but it works.

DA/SA and DAO hammer actions are at lower (but still possible) risk of AD from a drop even without a pin block. The gun is designed to be carried with the hammer down, and in many cases that means the hammer is flush against the rear of the receiver and a drop against the hammer will not transfer to the pin. Many of these designs have considerable distance between pin and cartridge with the hammer down, and are designed so that the pin indirectly contacts the cartridge (the pin is never in contact with hammer and primer at the same time). However, remember Murphy's Law; the pin, if free to move, probably will if dropped "just wrong".

 

[brighamr]

You guys should know this already. Any gun that doesn't pass the California "drop test" will discharge automatically without being dropped. That's why they have the list right?

/sarcasm

 

[Randall]

How does the hammer on a 1911 hit the firing pin hard enough to ignite a primer if it is resting against the frame allready? The firing pin does not contact the primer and the hammer at the same time, it has to be shorter to allow the firing pin stop to be installed.
If the sear notch fails the half cock is a safety catch to catch the hammer before it can strike the firing pin.
If the firing pin spring is weak I could see how if dropped on the muzzle from a high enough distance the inertia could overcome the spring. But that is also from a worn out part, not a properly kept firearm.
Randall

 

[jfdavis58]

There are far too many 'if's' in this thread: any gun can ... if...

The first rule/law of firearms: every gun is loaded. No exceptions.

As the basic function of the gun is to cause the discharge of a round, logic dictates that any mishandling may result in a discharge.

Dropping a gun is certainly mishandling.

A perfectly maintained gun with fresh expendables such as springs, may in fact fail, i.e. break a part, and discharge if dropped. It's statistics; possibly a low probability but not null.

It's statistics not worth betting upon; take great care to avoid any mishandling of a firearm.

 

[jlbraun]

The CZ 75 (non-B), and the Tokarev are two that come to mind as far as autos.

 

[CountGlockula]

ANY firearm that is dropped CAN discharge.

Except a GLOCK: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glock#Safety_mechanisms

Drop Safety[13]: The far end of the same extension bar locks the striker into place from the rear until the trigger is pulled.
Similar systems for internal safeties have since become standard for many major manufacturers of semi-automatic pistols...blah...The absence of a traditional safety switch means that Glock users who intend to carry the gun on their person with the chamber loaded must be cautious (as they should be for any type of firearm) of keeping their finger off of the trigger when holstering or unholstering the gun; however, the firearm will not discharge if dropped, requiring a deliberate trigger pull to discharge the firearm.

 

[Liko81]

Is that also Glock's stance in their instruction manual? Any mechanism can fail to function as designed, including safety mechanisms. You can drop my Ruger P95 just about any way from Sunday and it will not fire as long as the pin block is in good working order (similar to the one in your Glock), and in addition a Ruger in its normal hammer-down state has a harder trigger pull and is fully decocked as opposed to many "safe-action" pistols, which make the gun safer IMO than even a Glock when hammer-down. However, there is always a set of circumstances where the gun *might* AD because of a failure in the safety mechanism. Such failure, however unlikely, is always possible and cannot be discounted.

 

[Owens]

Rimfire ammo.
(YEARS ago) Cousin of mine tossed a few (3 if I remember correctly) .22 shorts in the air. 2 landed on concrete slab just right to go boom. No injuries, except to his underwear. Asked WHY did you do this....? "to see what would happen."

 

[rcmodel]

A 1911 would be safer with the hammer cocked than resting on the firing pin.

Not true.
The 1911 uses an inertia firing pin, which is shorter then the hole through the slide it rides in. If the firing pin is within spec of 2.290" - 2.296" long, it cannot contact the primer unless the hammer hits it and drives it foreward out of the slide.
If the hammer is all the way down against the slide, the FP spring is already slightly compressed, but the firing pin is not touching the primer. There cannot be enough inertia generated to drive it foreword to hit the primer from a blow to the hammer.

What is NOT SAFE is carrying one loaded on the "Half-Cock" or more correctly, the "Intercept notch".
In that case, if dropped, the sear or sear pin can fail, and the hammer has enough room to get a flying start at hitting the firing pin.

Cocked & Locked or Hammer Down on the slide are the only two ways to safely carry a loaded 1911.


rcmodel

 

[tnieto2004]

I hear Keltec's can go off if dropped .. I don't keep one in the pipe on mine

 

[Kacerdias]

I'm fairly sure a CZ-52 will if the hammer is cocked back. Some of them had faulty decokers that could serve as a second trigger. Mine misfired at an outdoor range once. I'm SOOOO glad my range discipline was up to my usual standard - I was pointing it downrange when the safety failed.

I've fixed the pistol but I'll always be a little extra careful with that one.

 

[Cosmoline]

any and all firearms can discharge when dropped.

How could a revolver with a TSB and the hammer down discharge from being dropped?

for general safety revolvers should be carried hammer-down on an empty chamber or already-fired brass.

This applies to the old style single actions such as SAA clones and of course the old model Rugers we know and love. But I've never heard loading five suggested for any smokeless DA revolver. Even those from the pre-war era had internal blocks. Thus the "positive" in Police Positive Special.

It's statistics not worth betting upon;

I don't think anyone is advocating dropping firearms on purpose. But if you've been out and about with them enough, you know that sometimes they do get dropped. Fingers aren't perfect, esp. when it gets below zero. It's a valid question, and simply saying "don't drop them" really doesn't answer much.