What gun companies haven't "sold out?"

[happygeek]

FIVETWOSEVEN,

The FN PS90 USG came out after the Assault Weapons band. The HK USC came out during the band.

Oh, the FN PS90 USG has a longer barrel then the HK USC but the PS90 is a bull pup, so by basic design, its shorter.

Not even a close argument

Oh, how does HK screw civilians? Anybody know?

Umm, you do realize the AWB ended over 6 years ago?

If H&K has failed to open a factory stateside that makes sense though, since they'd be restrained by 922r even if they wanted to import a G36, MP5, or USC clone. Of course, that means that they're kinda un-American and you're sending your cash overseas when you could be buying from FNH or Sig, just to name two companies off the top of my head who opened factories here and offer clones.

A lot of people are mildly displeased with H&K over their attack on the GSG5.

 

[CraigC]

Frankly, I think some of the "sold out" stories are either overblown or ancient history that really has little bearing on the present situation.

I have to agree. I don't particularly care for new S&W revolvers, for several reasons but I like their AR's and would own one of their 1911's. The folks holding the agreement against them should get up to date. The company has changed hands, the agreement was never abided and Bush made it go away. The whole Ruger thing was just overblown and taken out of context.

We do have to remember that businesses are in business to make money or they go out of business.

Umm, you do realize the AWB ended over 6 years ago?

Before we all go jumping on HK over the USC, seriously, how big is the market for such a critter? Must not be substantial because the HK is one of very, very few .45ACP carbines available. I seriously doubt it would be worth the effort to change the design to sell a handful of guns a year.

...you could be buying from FNH or Sig, just to name two companies off the top of my head who opened factories here and offer clones.

Where do you think your money is going if you buy an FN or Sig? FN only opened a factory here because it's required by law, due to their military contracts. It's still FN/Herstal.

 

[Zach S]

Barret is certainly a company that never 'sold out.' A few years back, didn't they decide not to sell to California LE because the state law would not allow lowly civilians to purchase any 50 cal centerfire rifles? Kudos to them for that.

Yep. As I recall, they refused to service a rifle sent in by a police department.

I'd love for them to release something like a .499 FUCAL... The "L" would be legislature...

 

[S. Hill]

From a quality / "cutting corners" point of view, C-Sharps and Ultra-Light Arms are two that still hold their quality standards.

ULA sold to Colt, and Colt screwed the guns up. Mel Forbes, the original owner, bought it back from them. He couldn’t stand to see his product mismanaged that way.

People may complain about the cost of a C-Sharps rifle, but they NEVER complain about the quality.

Firearms are a unique type of product. It is not like electronics or appliances where we EXPECT to throw them out in 5 years. They are something that people expect to last at least a lifetime, but they will buy “Brand X” instead of “Brand Y” if “Brand X” sells for $5 less. You have extreme price competition over something that should be passed down from generation to generation.

This results in what a friend of mine calls “Swimming as hard as you can to the bottom of the pool.” You shave seconds off of the production time. You investment cast parts that should be machined from bar stock. You compromise on tolerances so that your rejection rate doesn’t go up 2%. Each of these things helps you to compete with the company that is undercutting your price by that $5.

In reality, if you choose to buy a Taurus copy of a Colt or Smith & Wesson product, simply because of the price, you are causing this erosion of quality.

 

[alabaster]

HK has had an issue with that with the ITD also. Years ago when I worked there, I tried and tried to get them to offer civvie classes, and they really did look at me like I had lost my mind. They ran off about how unsafe, irresistable, and sue-happy people are. Cops and Military were obviously more stable and sensible. It truly offended me. Still does actually.

 

[Ole Coot]

Personal opinion only, any company that adds safeties, locks, promotes empty chamber carry(if you must) and don't realize a gun should be available to use without complicating the aim, pull trigger get bang has sold out. I own older firearms and will only buy them. Beretta isn't bad in my book.

 

[rbernie]

Personal opinion only, any company that adds safeties, locks, promotes empty chamber carry(if you must) and don't realize a gun should be available to use without complicating the aim, pull trigger get bang has sold out.

Personal opinion only - any company that is NOT making guns that include safeties and that does NOT promote safe gun handling has sold out, and is actively and willingly NOT supporting the next generation of gun buyers and is NOT ensuring that our grandkids will still have access to sporting and defensive arms.

 

[CDW4ME]

Sorry but Kimber did sell out ... and they do have an internal lock.

California banned Kimber's claiming the original design didn't pass the drop test ... thats when they came out with the Kimber II, with the Schwartz safety ... and dropped the original design, forcing the II on everyone else in the country.

Schwartz safety is nothing but an additional mechanical safety to please the PC crowd and their legal efforts ... and totally un-necessary. When it works, it works, but when it doesn't work, the pistol won't fire.

The Schwartz system is completely different from an internal lock. You may not like the series II Kimbers since they incorporate a feature not found in the original 1911 design, but so do the series 80 Colts. The intent of the Schwartz is different from an internal lock. Schwartz is intented to prevent against unintentional discharge if the pistol is accidentally dropped, like that drop test. The internal lock is intended to substitute for a safe. Anyone with a real safe doesn't need a internal lock. If the gun is left in a vehicle, then the owner could store the gun in a locked hard case. I have zero use for internal locks. The IL includes a small key that you have to keep up with.

I bought one S&W J-frame with a IL, (I have a couple of pre-lock J-frames and intended to prevent them from wear) but that feature bugged me until I sold it.
That got me started on IL systems.

I sold a Taurus revolver that I'd owned for several years, it too had a internal lock.

Next step was to sell the Springfield XD's. They didn't have the internal lock but the Springfield 1911's have one so they were guilty by association. Why in the heck put an internal lock (S&W and SA) on some of your products but not others?

I'm now free of any product with an IL and free of products currently made by companies that randomly stick mandatory IL on certain guns but not others; if it's (IL) such a useful feature then they (S&W and SA) should stick one on every gun they make.

Note that I am allowing an exemption or "grandfather clause" in my personal IL ban on the J-frames I own made before the S&W sellout, and that "grandfather clause" will extend to my current Kimbers & Glocks in the event of future sellout by those companies.

IL=

 

[Deus Machina]

I can see the point of the internal locks on some things, though.

Some casual shooters that don't use the gun for HD, or don't see a problem with it, may want the lock if they have kids. Then it becomes an option, like if you prefer your 1911 with an arched or straight backstrap, or with or without front serrations.

I don't mind a properly designed internal lock as a mechanism, I just don't want it because the thought behind it undermines a strict policy of safe handling--IE, never rely on your safety--and it's a visual reminder of what companies and politicians allowed.

 

[MLee]

In my mind Seecamp comes as close as any company who has never sold out to cost cutting, laws, OR lawyers. Yes, they have a CA., etc complaint model, but in my mind that was just to be able to serve those customers in restrictive states. They have such a long backlog they probably could survive without selling in those states. A few years back their manual was reprinted in several places because it was very unique, no BS legal stuff, nothing but a straight explanation what the gun was for - protection. Their FAQ section explains the material they use and why they have not given in to cheaper modes of manufacture. Even if you're not a fan of their models and small caliber you have to respect them as a company who has not compromised their morals or opinions.

 

[Wopasaurus]

Loaded Round

FYI, Ruger now sells 20 and 30 round Mini-14 and Mini-30 magazines to the public and have done so for the last several years. I have bought some from MidwayUSA about two months ago.

From my understanding (correct me if I'm wrong), it's because Bill Ruger died, which is why hi-cap mags, AR's, and sub/compact handguns have been entering the market from Ruger in recent years. He was holding them back in those respects.

 

[S.W.G.]

Oh, how does HK screw civilians? Anybody know?

One thing that I will never understand:
Why doesn't H&K bring back the 9X series?

They stopped becaue of the import bans, but now they have facilities on U.S. soil, so why aren't they dusting off their old tooling and rolling out new HK94's and '93's?

With so many scary stories about the clones on the market, you just know that H&K would make a killing off of their older stamped guns.

Seriously, there is a BIG market among collectors and sear owners for genuine H&K's that don't cost $3,000+ used.

Also, I have heard that they just discontinued the MK23.

 

[Double Naught Spy]

Anyone who has perused these forums long enough will undoubtedly encounter posters lamenting the loss of yet another respectable gun company who sold out. This can be for various reasons, including but not limited to cutting corners/cheapening the final product, siding with anti-gun legislators, refusing to sell certain products to civilians, etc.

I am having trouble following what John Wayne is trying to ascertain. He wants to know what companies have "sold out," then mixing issues of quality control, product development, limited customer base, and/or political issues. In other words, a firearms company that does just about anything that we don't like is a company that has "sold out."

"Selling out" is the process of taking a side for profit, betraying the wants or needs of a person or persons who don't benefit. Sellouts are often those who change sides for gain or profit, though I have seen posters in the past claiming to be "sold out" by the opposition, which really isn't being sold out as much as benefitting from a position they already support.

Just because a company does something you don't like doesn't make it a sellout.

What gun companies haven't "sold out?"

I found it very interesting that JW noted Winchester going down hill in '64, but had not heard of anything bad about Remington. As has been quite the story of late, Remington cut corners back in 1947 on the Rem 700 and related lines by not opting to add a 5.5 cent improvement to the Walker fire control system that would have kept the gun from being able to fire for reasons other than pulling the trigger.

I was also suprised not to see 1970s Colt being included in quality control issues. He did include Colt for the smart gun technology Colt toyed with for several years which quite to the contrary has turned out to show how problematic such technology is on numerous levels and has helped to squash some of its demand.

So S&W sided with the Clintons and we were all up in arms because S&W put locking mechanisms in their fire control system which did not have to used by the customer, but everyone hated them for giving gun owner the option of locking the gun in that manner or not.

Kimber has been accused for its selling of specialty 1911s to departments in CA where the government is unfriendly towards its citizens on gun issues.
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=372284&highlight=S&W+boycott

The same went for Colt, S&W, Glock ...http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=309136&highlight=S&W+boycott

A boycott was called for Glock when it stopped selling to an importer for Canada.
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=323146&highlight=S&W+boycott

FN ...http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=312595&highlight=S&W+boycott

RRA http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=216090&highlight=S&W+boycott

I can't recall anything mentioned about the following companies, but something has probably been said:

Remington - trigger locks, quality
Springfield Armory - trigger locks

Aside from H&K "hating everyone" with their restrictive gun sales, I found it laughable that so many pro-gun folks who talk about protecting their rights were so up in arms against H&K for protecting their intellectual property by stopping GSG and others from making H&K pattern or lookalike guns. The irony is just amazing.

I also find it a bit ironic that nobody was crying foul when Colt was stealing Kahr's designs to use in Colt guns like the Pocket 9, but were mad at Kahr for protecting its rights.

Speaking of Kahr, I seem to recall the cries for boycott because Kahr's owner was the son of the founder of the Moonies, the Moonies being anti-gun, not that Kahr's owner was active with the Unification Church or anything like that, but simply because he was the son of Sun Myung Moon and therefore is likely influenced by an anti-gun organization.

In my mind Seecamp comes as close as any company who has never sold out to cost cutting, laws, OR lawyers.

I seem to recall that Seecamp's original little .32 was developed with the use of just one cartridge, Winchester Silvertips and often would not work well with any other make or model. Talk about limiting a gun owner's options! Okay, I actually don't see anything wrong with the dedicated cartridge from a rights perspective, but if folks wanted to cry foul about Ruger's limited mag capacity and with gun lock-friendly companies, then to be fair, you have to also include Seecamp.

I swear, we are some awfully fickle, judgmental, and shortsighted folks sometimes.

 

[Quiet]

In regards to Barrett and CA...
The CA LE agency was the LAPD. LAPD police chief supported the .50BMG rifle ban, in return Barrett refused to honor the warranites on the Barrett Model 82A1 rifles that the LAPD SWAT had.

Barrett currently sells CA legal variants of the Model 82A1 and Model 99. Both variants are chambered in .416Barrett and the Model 82A1 features a magazine lock.


In regards to H&K...
H&K points towards Germany export laws and USA import laws, as the reason why they have ignored the USA civilian rifle market for decades.

German export laws requires semi-auto centerfire rifles to not be parts compatible with military firearms. Example, the H&K MR223. The MR223's upper & lower receivers have different dimensions that prevent them from being compatible with standard AR15/M16 receivers.

USA import laws requires semi-auto centerfire rifles to be in "sporting purpose" configuration and must comply with Fed 922r. Example, the H&K SL8 and H&K USC. The thumbhole stock and 10 round capacity is needed to meet the "sporting purpose" configuration. In order to avoid 922r compliance; the H&K MR-556, FN SCAR-16S, SIG SIG-556 and Steyr AUG-A3 SA are made in the USA.

 

[burley]

Buy a Kahr and support Sun Myung Moon. Who's the sell out in this case?

As far as the HK and you thing, Ford sells plenty of Crown Vics to the police and yet they take care of lowly civilians too.

 

[rscalzo]

Ford sells plenty of Crown Vics to the police

Not for much longer.

 

[Acera]

Someone mentioned the CMP.

I think they sold out years ago. Originally set up to promote civilian marksmanship, now they are just a supply point for the Garand collectors clubs. While they still promote, and run matches, their rifles sales and the forums postings seem to be more geared toward collecting and less toward actual training of the citizenry.

 

[burley]

Quote:
Ford sells plenty of Crown Vics to the police

Not for much longer.



What exactly is the future of Ford and how do you know for absolute certain?

 

[SharpsDressedMan]

Glock has been mentioned, but the owner, Gaston Glock, allegedly told the Clinton administration to stuff it over pressures to institute all kinds of changes to meet the political scene at the time. Apparently, the US govt threatened to cancel orders, etc, and Glock just ignored them. If that is all true, then my hat is WAY off to Glock. I guess you just don't TELL an Austrian how to do business.

 

[Hatterasguy]

FN, they still make the best assault rifles in the world as they have for the past 60 years.


And unlike HK where I cannot go out and buy a G36, I can go out and buy a Scar 16/17.

 

[ChronoCube]

H&K points towards Germany export laws and USA import laws, as the reason why they have ignored the USA civilian rifle market for decades.

There's a subtle distinction to make here between the "sin of omission" (not opening a US plant) and the "sin of commission" (GSG-5 lawsuit). It's not a big deal if HK does not build a US plant. They don't owe us that.

However, if HK does not build semiauto rifles/carbines in the US, then they have nothing to lose when a competitor sells MP5 "clones" -- so they have no justification for going after the GSG-5.

They can't have it both ways -- not entering the US semiauto rifle market but at the same time suing an importer for bringing clones into that market.

 

[ChronoCube]

Aside from H&K "hating everyone" with their restrictive gun sales, I found it laughable that so many pro-gun folks who talk about protecting their rights were so up in arms against H&K for protecting their intellectual property by stopping GSG and others from making H&K pattern or lookalike guns. The irony is just amazing.

A few things to note:

One, the MP5 is not an original design. It was based on the G3, which was in turn based on the CETME rifle. HK is not the originator of the design.

Two, the GSG-5 is a "clone" in appearance only. It does not use the roller-delayed blowback system of the MP5. It is straight blowback just like every other .22 semiauto rifle. By the logic of the lawsuit, HK should sue a US manufacturer of MP5-like stocks for the Ruger 10/22!

Three, by forbidding sales from the GSG-5 manufacturer and importer to US gun owners, HK is doing the same thing that gun bans do. They are using government courts in an anti-gun way. That's the real irony here.

Btw, does anyone actually know the nature of the intellectual property surrounding the MP5? Does it even have a patent/copyright/trademark/whatever?

 

[UpTheIrons]

Loaded Round


From my understanding (correct me if I'm wrong), it's because Bill Ruger died, which is why hi-cap mags, AR's, and sub/compact handguns have been entering the market from Ruger in recent years. He was holding them back in those respects.

This is probably true. I also was able to buy 20 and 30 round mags for a Mini-14 in the last year.

 

[c919]

I think the medal of honor has to go to Ronnie Barret (of Barret) on this one. That whole thing between him and the state of California is 100% pure awesome.

 

[Bubbles]

I think the medal of honor has to go to Ronnie Barret (of Barret) on this one. That whole thing between him and the state of California is 100% pure awesome.

Ahem...
http://www.extremefirepower.com/policies.html