What happened to 40 caliber?

[Balrog]

40 S&W ammo was available when other calibers were not during the ammo crisis of 2020/2021. That's a pretty good reason to have a 40 caliber pistol on hand.

 

[CapnMac]

Yesterday, at the Fort Worth Gun Show, there was a lot of 40 ammo available, and it was clear all the "rush" orders had finally been filled.

There were not so many pistols in 40, though. If far, far more than were in 357sig or 45gap. (There was even a 9mmBrowning long pistol for sale--an Astra for $675; you can never count a given ammo as "out.")

 

[shafter]

What happened to 40 caliber? It's simple, 9mm got a whole lot better than it used to be.

 

[Steven_Seagull]

I don't think a .40 can do anything I can't. I do it silently with aikido and palm strikes. Your .40 is no match for my skills. That is why it's dead. All calibers are dead when compared to the guns I carry.
*Looks at flabby arms and pretends it's muscle*

 

[tominboise]

View attachment 1107043

I can't quite read the model number - what pistol is this? Good looking, for sure.

 

[Buckeye63]

#tominboise

Glock 23 Gen 3 ..

 

[BJung]

I'm surprised this thread is still going on. The .40 is not as popular as the 9mm. If a rifle is an extension of a spear, the handgun is a modern extension of a knife. Does one knife work better than another. I say slightly, But if the wielder is very skilled at the lesser sized knife, he'll win compared with the bowie knife user that can't use it well.

 

[Palladan44]

The difference between 40 S&W and 9x19 for my practical purposes is and always has been pretty REDUNDANT.....but here's an attempt at reasons why the 40 is losing ground.

The 40 s&w came into existence basically on the notion that the 9mm was insufficient in power......
Keyword: Notion.

1)We eventually learned that short of the power produced from a long gun, that "service" caliber handgun rounds all had similar results when it comes to "threat stopping" (aka. power) abilities (with a properly placed shot) and if multiple hits on target, increases the odds of a stopped threat even more....huh, no kidding.

So, the quicker shooting, more accurate and higher capacity gun.....wins. (for the "common" shooter)

All the other reasons such as lesser cost of ammo, etc and the advancement in bullet technology is also just an added bonus for the 9mm IMHO.... I'm pretty sure that most the new "hot" bullet technologies come in diameter .400 too, so im glad to take advantage of a couple of those. I just use them in 10. Holy Acronyms!!!! From left to right ACME, XTP, HST, HAP, SXT (or PDX-1)
Followed by the Berry's "POS" and the Remington "IDK" i forgot.

 

[BJung]

I see it this way. From the FBI experience with the 9mm decades ago, a larger semi-automatic cartridge was in demand. So, here came the 10mm. Now, a 10mm is powerful enough for hunting. It's like a .357magnum or 44 magnum in a semi-automatic. Or, it's like a short sword to a dagger (the 9mm) expanding on my previous post. But Law Enforcement couldn't handle it and adopted the 40cal. That's like shortening a short sword and having a long knife shaped like a sword. Okay, It might be more effective than what was originally replaced but not by much. And so, the 40's effectiveness relative to the 9mm is mute, especially with these new bullets that expand very well.

 

[Preacher of Eagles]

About 15-18 years ago the local sheriffs department had MP5's chambered in 40 S&W. They used the local conservation area shooting range and I was normally able to pick up all of their brass. Needless to say I have plenty of 40 brass to last me quite a while.

But as others have stated. Everyone jumped on the 40 S&W band wagon when the FBI started using it. And when the FBI went back to 9mm then a lot of police department and civilians went back to 9mm also.

I personally like 40 S&W. Yes it definitely has a different recoil impulse compared to 9mm in the same sized pistols but the recoil is still not bad. I even bust out the Hi Point 4095 Carbine in 40 S&W now and then just for giggles. That thing is very accurate for being so cheap ($179 when I bought it)

You should give one of these conversions-
https://www.hightowerarmory.com/High-Tower-Armory-MBS-95-40-SW_p_48.html
This isn't a typical cheap, POS stock replacement. I'm a retired SWAT commander, and a master armorer/gunsmith. I've been doing this type of thing for over 30 years, to say I'm difficult to impress would be an understatement. The hi point carbine is robust and dependable, and that's about all I can say about it that's positive... It is accurate, once you add decent sights.
The high tower armory bullpup system for the little carbine is amazing. (I'm not affiliated with them in any way, just a fan) the only downside is the trigger. The original trigger is a POS and the conversion doesn't change that. If you use your imagination, while you have it apart, you can improve it- just think of ways to reduce contact or smooth areas where contact is unavoidable.
I'm not saying I'd trade my MP5 for a high tower armory PCC, but if you own a hi point carbine, this conversion makes the little carbine more enjoyable and more lethal, if the situation called for it.
As for the .40-9mm debate... Like most men my age, esp military folks, we were raised on the 1911. .45 acp was the favored man killer round for handguns.
Political correctness in the police department meant saying goodbye to "cocked and locked". I got dozens of phone calls per week complaining that our damned fool officers were running around with their guns cocked! *Sigh*
So about that time the new plastic Glock came on our radar. I hated the idea. So the chief deputy sent me to Smyrna Georgia to Glock armorers, advanced armorer, and Glock tactical schools. I came back a changed man.
That experience deserves its own book.
So we adopted the G22 for uniforms, the G23 for detectives, plain clothes etc, and the G27 for backup, off duty, undercover work. The .40 was our caliber of choice because the Speer Gold Dot ammo performed very close to .45 acp ballistics while capacity remained high like 9mm. Additionally, an FBI shootout down near San Antonio resulted in two dead agents, because their anemic 9mm pistols wouldn't penetrate the windshield. This is Texas, we found those boys and killed em back, but that didn't help those agents. RIP fellas.
So no 9mm for us. We never regretted it, both the Glock and the .40 served us well for decades.
I had been a fighter pilot as a young man, flying the mighty Eagle, F-15C, for the United States Air Force. When I left the service aviation was in a slump, so I ended up in law enforcement. I flew a Lear jet for a company on my days off. But aviation saw a massive resurgence, so I kissed my badge goodbye and flew around the world for awhile before settling at Continental airlines. I spent 22 glorious years there, after retirement I returned to law enforcement, eventually commanding 3 narcotics entry teams. (SWAT)
To my surprise, we were back to the 9mm!
First thing I did was buy a bunch of ballistic gelatine to make targets, to test the standing belief that ammo had improved so much that larger calibers were no longer needed.
After shooting all day at various targets through various media I came to two conclusions:
1. Ammo had improved dramatically. 9mm was much better than it had been.
2. The same thing was true for .40 ammo. So we switched back to .40

When asked why, I just repeated that old law enforcement gag:
"Officer, why in the world do you carry a .45 caliber handgun??"
" We'll ma'am, mostly it's because they don't make a .46."

True enough.

 

[BJung]

Preacher of Eagles,

Thanks for posting your advice from experience is so helpful. What do you think of the 40 having the ability to switch barrels so someone can practice with a 9mm or shoot .357Sig? The .357Sig should be able to penetrate a windshield or car door, yes?

 

[DR505]

Additionally, an FBI shootout down near San Antonio resulted in two dead agents, because their anemic 9mm pistols wouldn't penetrate the windshield. This is Texas, we found those boys and killed em back, but that didn't help those agents. RIP fellas.

I do not recall this event. I looked through the FBI's "Wall of Honor" web page and did not find any mention of it. The instances where two FBI agents were killed by hostile fire on the same day are very few: Schwartzenberger/Alfin in Sunrise FL 2021; Williams/Coler in Pine Ridge SD 1975; Dove/Grogan in Miami FL 1986; Porter/Elmore in El Centro CA 1979; Miller/Dixon-Martinez in Washington DC 1994; Woodriff/Palmisano in Washington DC 1969; Hollis/Cowley in Barrington IL 1934.

What year did this happen? What were these agents' names and from what office?

 

[Palladan44]

Maybe he was loosely referencing Miami/Dade from memory and got the details a bit (a lot) cocked up?

 

[DR505]

Maybe he was loosely referencing Miami/Dade from memory and got the details a bit (a lot) cocked up?

I am guessing a different agency such as USBP, ATF, or DEA etc. He seems certain it was Texas and had to do with auto windshields. Hard to believe anyone could get all that wrong.

 

[DR505]

I see it this way. From the FBI experience with the 9mm decades ago, a larger semi-automatic cartridge was in demand. So, here came the 10mm. Now, a 10mm is powerful enough for hunting. It's like a .357magnum or 44 magnum in a semi-automatic. Or, it's like a short sword to a dagger (the 9mm) expanding on my previous post. But Law Enforcement couldn't handle it and adopted the 40cal. That's like shortening a short sword and having a long knife shaped like a sword. Okay, It might be more effective than what was originally replaced but not by much. And so, the 40's effectiveness relative to the 9mm is mute, especially with these new bullets that expand very well.

I am not sure what you mean when you say LE "couldn't handle it" (the 10mm). The FBI was never issued a full-power Dornhaus & Dixon 10mm round...they worked up the velocity of a 10mm cartridge until it passed the required test criteria and then stopped adding velocity. The lower powered 10mm round used by the FBI was made well before the first 10mm was issued to agents. So the notion that the FBI "couldn't handle" a full power 10mm is not based in fact. The 40 S&W came about because the ballistics the FBI deemed adequate could be fit easily into a shorter case, thus allowing for a smaller framed weapon. No more need for the 10mm 1076 (which was too large for smaller agent's hands). It had nothing to do with not being able to "handle" a 10mm.

 

[JohnKSa]

I see it this way. From the FBI experience with the 9mm decades ago, a larger semi-automatic cartridge was in demand. So, here came the 10mm. Now, a 10mm is powerful enough for hunting. It's like a .357magnum or 44 magnum in a semi-automatic.

10mm is comparable to the .357Mag. It is not remotely comparable to the .44Mag.

The 10mm was around before the FBI went looking for something other than 9mm. It was not designed in response to FBI requirements.

But Law Enforcement couldn't handle it and adopted the 40cal.

The FBI never issued full power 10mm. As far as I know, no other LE department ever did either. The FBI found a lighter load that met their requirements and issued that loading when they started changing over to 10mm.

S&W realized they could stuff those ballistics into a smaller cartridge and did. The FBI kept issuing 10mm for awhile after that--I believe California Highway Patrol was the first LE agency to adopt the .40S&W.

 

[DR505]

The 10mm was around before the FBI went looking for something other than 9mm. It was not designed in response to FBI requirements.The FBI never issued full power 10mm. As far as I know, no other LE department ever did either. The FBI found a lighter load that met their requirements and issued that loading when they started changing over to 10mm.

S&W realized they could stuff those ballistics into a smaller cartridge and did. The FBI kept issuing 10mm for awhile after that--I believe California Highway Patrol was the first LE agency to adopt the .40S&W.

Thanks for the confirmation.

 

[Smaug]

...

Well, it looks like Federal applied their "modern" bullet tech to 40 too.

I don't think it's all that much about bullet tech. It's about the 40 having a higher ceiling. It can shoot heavier, wider bullets at the same or higher velocity.

 

[Palladan44]

I don't think it's all that much about bullet tech. It's about the 40 having a higher ceiling. It can shoot heavier, wider bullets at the same or higher velocity.

Yes, but the bullet technology still helps the 40 s&w perform better the same way it helps the 9mm perform better is what he's saying. Being heavier, wider and sometimes faster has always remained true.

 

[BJung]

I don't have the experience or the interest to do this but would a muzzle break on a 40 reduce muzzle flip enough so it would be a 40 yet have less recoil and be more like a 9mm? I'm curious

 

[mavracer]

I don't have the experience or the interest to do this but would a muzzle break on a 40 reduce muzzle flip enough so it would be a 40 yet have less recoil and be more like a 9mm? I'm curious

Many of the better designed 40s have a smidge more weight in the slide, I've shot a FN FNS 40 and 9mm side by side with SD ammo and there just isn't that much difference.

 

[The_Quartermaster]

Diet 10MM Lite is a real pussycat out of a G20. Still cycles the gun perfectly but you feel as though you are shooting them from a comped pistol. Except that it's not. I don't compete but if I were to, that would be the gun using only .40 S&W that I would find a category to play gun golf with.

 

[Mike J]

Many of the better designed 40s have a smidge more weight in the slide, I've shot a FN FNS 40 and 9mm side by side with SD ammo and there just isn't that much difference.

. This is right. Pistols designed for 40 Are much more pleasant to shoot than 9 mm pistols that they just shoehorned the larger round into. A low bore axis doesn’t hurt either.

 

[Palladan44]

I don't have the experience or the interest to do this but would a muzzle break on a 40 reduce muzzle flip enough so it would be a 40 yet have less recoil and be more like a 9mm? I'm curious

In 10mm and 357 Sig - yes, there is a noticable advantage IMO. In common service calibers like 9mm, 40, 45, it would hardly make a difference, or not enough to notice a difference.

Shooting a standard G23 and a G19 side by side, I can feel a significant difference, regardless of ammo. If I carried OWB like an LEO I'd prefer 40, or more if I was allowed. (10mm, no?)

Drop down to CCW sized weapons, and the difference in recoil between 40 and 9 is irrefutable. I carry 9mm in this department.

 

[The_Quartermaster]

. This is right. Pistols designed for 40 Are much more pleasant to shoot than 9 mm pistols that they just shoehorned the larger round into. A low bore axis doesn’t hurt either.

So at the risk of sounding ignorant here, isn't the new G22 Gen 5 a bit beefier meaning more purpose built for .40 S&W and does not work in almost all G17/G22 holsters now?